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SPI 663: How to Actually Win with Email Marketing with Jason Resnick

Email marketing is by far the number one way businesses are growing their revenue. It’s also much more straightforward than we’ve been led to believe. So why are many entrepreneurs reluctant to get started?

We often like to overcomplicate things, but Jason Resnick of NurtureKit joins me in this episode to share simple email tactics that get amazing results. At the core of his method is a vital attitude shift from broadcasting to communication. Some of Jason’s clients have even doubled their email list income using this framework!

We’ve seen Jason’s mastery in action at SPI. He’s been a huge part of our recent, massively-successful All-Access Pass campaign!

This session is an excellent behind-the-scenes look at our email marketing plan and a blueprint for anyone looking to follow in our footsteps. Jason’s approach to this launch was very clever, so I can’t wait for you to hear all about it. The best part is that the tools discussed today can be used at any level, so listen in and enjoy!

Today’s Guest

Jason Resnick

I help course creators, digital product owners, membership site owners, and coaches double revenue from their email list in 90 days without using email as a blunt tool to broadcast to everyone. I have a wife and 2 young boys. They are my world! I’m an avid baseball fan (Let’s Go Mets!), love the Kansas City Chiefs and NY Islanders. Not to mention anything retro gaming-related. But spending time with my family and friends is the most important thing to me and my guiding compass with anything I do.

Since 2010, my business has always been about being able to build a business designed around the life that I want to live. In 2016, when my first son was born, I realized that dream. I love and appreciate the time in history that we live in today. And with me being able to realize my dream, I help other creators bring clarity to the unclear path they have for a subscriber to become a customer, so that they, as the business owner, can build a business designed around the life they want to live.

You’ll Learn


SPI 663: How to Actually Win with Email Marketing with Jason Resnick

Jason Resnick: As long as you can execute on really figuring out who your offers appeals to and actually can get results for, then you really just have to give the path from everyone else so that they can see themselves in people that are already getting results from the offer. It’s not all that hard. A lot of people overcomplicate it. And it’s not it. It’s you and your subscriber talking to each other through email, and if you make it as simple as that, amazing things happen just from that.

Pat Flynn: Email marketing. Now, when a lot of people hear that term, it is something that often turns people away. But it’s unfortunate because although we have access to our communities on social media and other places, email is still by far the number one way that businesses are growing their income because of that direct interaction.

But the mistake that a lot of people make, and you might be making this mistake as well, is you’re treating it like a one-way street where it’s you talking to them but there’s no interaction. There’s no real communication. It’s broadcasting. It’s amplification of a message, which yes, email can do for you.

But when you properly use email as a communication platform, even during a launch, and especially during a launch, it can work like magic. And today we’re bringing on an expert, Jason Resnick from, who we at SPI literally hired a few months ago to help us with our campaign for All-Access Pass, which you’ve heard of before.

And again, if you don’t know what that is, If you wanna see the thing that was launched in December of 2022 very successfully. A large reason that was successful is because of Jason’s approach to the campaign. With email, we’re gonna unpack that. We’re actually gonna go behind the scenes on the approach that he took and the survey question that we asked and why that was important, and how again, email can be used in the right way.

And that’s what I love about Jason. He’s here to help amplify that message of email can be done right and it doesn’t need to be complicated. And so if that sounds of interest to you, welcome to Smart Passive Income session 663. We’re talking to Jason Resnick of So let’s not wait any longer.

Here he is.

Announcer: Welcome to the Smart Passive Income Podcast, where it’s all about working hard now, so you can sit back and reap the benefits later. And now your host, he always gets confused about the difference between a raven and a crow. Pat Flynn.

Pat Flynn: Jason, welcome to the Smart Passive Income Podcast. Thanks for joining me here today.

Jason Resnick: Yeah, thanks for having me, pat. I’m super excited to be here.

Pat Flynn: Oh, I’m excited you’re here too because I’ve directly and the team has directly benefited from your work. Recently you helped us and built out a n email sequence for us in relation to our recent All-Access Pass launch and, you know, it was a team effort for sure, but largely driven by your expertise in your work. So just on behalf of the team, thank you. Because it is working, it’s doing well. People are signing up and it’s just incredible. So thank you for that.

Jason Resnick: It was an absolute pleasure and I’m excited to keep continuing working with your team because they are diligent bunch. They’re on task. I love working with them and they’re always open to ideas, so it’s an honor and a pleasure for me to work with teams and folks like that.

Pat Flynn: Thank you, Jason. Now you are an expert in email and specifically you have a website and a service over at Nurture being the keyword. You help people with their email and, and generally mostly people who are on ConvertKit.

We have a lot of ConvertKit users in our audience as well who are gonna love this. But even if you’re not, this will, the principles will be very, very relevant. How do we create conversation, how do we get people excited about the thing that we’re announcing on email? And as you had mentioned right before we hit record, you know, email is like 50 years old right now.

Yet people are still just using it as a one-way street to just drive a message through a person’s brain until they finally either cave in or or leave. And that’s just not how we want to do business. I know that’s not how my audience wants to do business. How did you get into email in the first place?

And then we’ll get into all the strategies for properly nurturing people and promoting something without feeling slimy, if you will, but how’d you get into what you do?

Jason Resnick: Yeah, I mean, me personally, I’ve always been a study of human behavior, yet I have a, a data-driven, very math-oriented brain, and I grew up as my career as a developer coding Ruby on Rails applications, PHP applications, and really working businesses in the e-commerce space for the most part. And then it was probably around, I would say about 2014, 2015, where I found tools such as Drip, ConvertKit, really on the heels of Drip. Infusionsoft at that time was kind of the, the, the flagship at that point where they were marrying data that we learned about people in the inbox with the website.

And you know, if somebody bought product A on the website, we didn’t talk about product A anymore. In the emails we talk about product B. And then that also reflected on the website because that’s where it interested me most was that I was coding up the website. Yet we were having all this data in some in the inbox, so to speak.

Right, and it was, we understood that they opened email, we understood that they clicked on certain links. We could surmise based on their behavior, what they were interested in and what they weren’t interested in. And so I wanted to create better experiences around that in an online behavior that you would get in like a mom and pop shop on Main Street, USA, where you could walk in and they would know what your likes are, what your dislikes are, they would understand who you are as a person, maybe your family, and so on and so forth. And I really wanted to create that in the online world. And so around 2014, 2015 is where I started a shift of my business from just strictly web development, more into the email automation and marketing area.

Pat Flynn: So 2015. So you’ve been doing this for seven, eight years now, which is incredible. And again, we’re just grateful for that expertise because you’ve, you’ve helped us and, and, and actually to go behind the scenes a little bit, why don’t you tell us what you discovered and why you approached the way we built out the All-Access Pass launch the way you did, like, what was your thinking behind that when you work with a client, for example, like when we hired you, like what did you do and how did you solve this problem, if you will?

Jason Resnick: Yeah. First, it’s understanding timelines really, because learning about a human being, just like in real life online, it also takes some time.

So understanding timelines is critical and understanding who the audience is and what their real desires are. Right, and I know I’ve heard you talk about this plenty, plenty of times where it’s not just the desire what, what is the objective of that individual, but it’s what’s the motivation behind that desire that actually is the important piece of the puzzle.

And when you unlock the two, that’s when when you put a buy button in front of somebody, it totally makes sense to them, right? It, it unlocks that buying decision. And so with regards to All-Access Pass, it was, I mean, the timeline was pretty truncated when I came on, but it was, you guys had a ton of segmentation data already, which was awesome.

And diving into that yet, I wanted to try to figure out, because All-Access Pass, one of the biggest benefits of that is the community that you are with, that you are going through these paths to completion, right? And so what I wanted to try to unlock there was how can we, with regards to understanding the audience, figure out buckets at which they could find other people in just like them.

All-Access Pass does that. When you sign up and you find your people because you are interested in your, well, not so much interested, but you’re at a certain point in your journey there are other people just like you that look like you and have the same problems as you, and you walk together along that same path.

And so the launch sequence, so to speak, was really that. How can we figure out a bucket of people that the individual subscriber that is greeting your emails is finding themselves amongst hundreds of other people that are receiving similar emails.

Pat Flynn: Yeah. So segmentation in a way, you know, even deeper with regards to and leading to the thing that we’re promoting.

Right, and helping people understand that there’s, they’re not just alone cuz email can feel very lonely. And this is, this was sort of the challenge is like how do we make people who are getting an individual email, feel like they’re now gonna be doing something together with people. And one brilliant strategy that you implemented was the use of a survey essentially to kick this off.

And, you know, surveys can be very useful. The data from them can be great, but the mechanism for a survey within this sequence was to activate a person. Can you talk a little bit more about this survey? What question did we ask and, and why did we go there?

Jason Resnick: Yeah. Surveys do a great job at collecting data, and sometimes what happens is, is we don’t know what to actually do with the data.

We even came up with the questions and the the answers, and we went back and forth pretty significantly on the answers because we wanna make sure that the answers are going to align with the campaign goal, right? And make sure that the individuals that are answering the question, the ultimate goal was to have a bunch of people find each other, so to speak, by answering questions. Because when All-Access Passed launched, we wanted to showcase, Hey, the vast majority of people are just like you, right? And it was a conversation that, you know, we had as the team started right up front was I said, Hey, how do we know this?

There’s a bunch of people on your list that actually need this thing, and there was a lot of inference and a lot of surmising and assumptions, but I really wanted like some hard concrete data around that. And like you said, I wanted to activate those people. I wanted them to kind of almost say, Hey, there’s something happening here.

Like I’m, I’m taking part in the survey. Not everyone does, but I’m taking part in the survey. I wonder where this is going. And we only asked one question, right? We asked one question, made it super simple. We only sent it out a couple of times, and people definitely answered, and we found that, well, yeah, the vast majority of people answered in the way where they were stuck, right?

They wanted to know what, what was the thing that they were stuck on in order to really accomplish goals, right? And we wanted to find out, and we gave them a list of choices, and the vast majority were stuck on procrastination and distractions, which is what All-Access Pass helps solve. It gets you moved towards the goals that you have by not having distractions, by keeping you on pace and that was the big thing for me, was really trying to figure out, hey, if we’re sending out an email a month in advance of a launch, how do we connect dots from that day to the launch?

Pat Flynn: Right. And the question specifically was, what is the biggest thing getting in your way from achieving your business goals?

And we had 3000 people answer. You don’t need 3000 answers. In fact, you don’t need any certain number of them, just you need people to answer this question. And we had 35% of people, or over a thousand people respond with too many distractions or procrastination. Right? Which, to your point, it was like, well, we built this so that there are less distractions.

That’s why it’s on Circle and not hosted on Facebook, for example. So now we can connect those dots for people as we’re promoting this and as we’re pitching it, because now it directly to the main problem and challenge that people had. Another one was not enough time or I’m too overwhelmed. And now in our messaging, whether in follow-up emails or I just hosted a live call, so on that or in broadcast later, even on social, we can address these things specifically, but now because somebody was activated by clicking on it and submitting their answer, to hear that we have a response for that answer now is really what helps motivate them.

There were some other interesting. I don’t even wanna call ’em tricks or other things, but like even to help people answer that question, there was an email that you had written that was like, Hey, help me and Matt with this argument that we’re having or something like that, you know? Or Matt, Matt and I can’t agree on something, can you help us?

So now that brings people in in a way that’s sort of curiosity driven. It gets clicks. That was like, I think the most open email that we had during this launch sequence. And again, this is even before AAP entered the picture for people. This was just, again, to collect this data and get the survey. She’s like, Hey, help me and Matt with this argument that we’re having.

Can you tell me what is your number one thing that’s stopping you from achieving your goals? And we’re gonna see if it matches what we think. It’s like, boom. That’s such a genius, quick, simple way. And I’ve noticed that a lot of the emails that you wrote for us are very short and just to the point, one thing only.

Can you speak to that? Cuz I think I have a problem even when I’m writing emails of just going too too much and going too far. How do you approach writing an individual email to have action be taken on that email?

Jason Resnick: Yeah. And it took me a while to do that, really adapt this. But knowing that there is an end goal, and knowing that there are going to be multiple emails going out, it’s enough to say, okay, this is enough for this email. This is really what is important. This is what we need them to do and take action on. And so I always try to be concise with my emails. I mean, even to my list, it’s a two minute read. You know, it’s a lesson and a link. That’s usually the the context.

But knowing that you are essentially creating a story arc for the campaign. You’re gonna have plenty of time to share other things, so you, there’s no reason, especially in that like first one, we’re really trying to gather up that information and so that information we’d need sooner rather than later because, what happens if we predicted wrong, right?

And they’re like, okay, well something’s not happening here. We might have to shift. So knowing that we, we needed that information, sending that email out, very concise. Go ahead, do it. You have an engaged list and engaged audience anyway, to me, I was like, okay, I’m, I have no doubt that we’re gonna to get a lot of clicks on this anyway.

And it makes total sense and drawing them into a conversation. For me, storytelling has always been pivotal, right? Bringing somebody behind the scenes has always worked really well, so it only made sense that you and Matt having talked about this and obviously planned this out for quite some time, had the conversation and so we wanna pull you in and those people would give us the indication that these are hotter leads than not, right? If they clicked and they answered, then these people are really those superfans, to use your word, that we want them to see All-Access Pass sooner rather than later and get in on these, the opportunity that’s in front of them. So yeah, conciseness in email, one call to action, let’s use the objective of that single email in the grand scheme of the, the campaign itself.

And that allows you to know like, hey, or give yourself grace, rather. Like I don’t need to keep spelling things out here.

Pat Flynn: And then I know a lot of people perhaps have seen this launch happen sort of in real time, cuz you know it already happened and you’re on our list. And so you probably saw a large number of emails, which I know scares a lot of people and even scared us when we saw Jason, your plan for how many emails were going to come out.

And I, perhaps it feels a little bit safer when each email is shorter and to the point and, and that helps versus each one being sort of an essay. But at the same time, I think a lot of people who are listening might worry about upsetting or, or, or bothering a subscriber to a point where then they would unsubscribe or worse get a reply like, stop emailing me this. Right? Like that kind of thing. We’re all afraid of that. So how do you. Respond to somebody who is, who is scared to send email because of that, and, and scared to, you know, amplify the quantity of them at a point, especially during a launch when, yeah, those emails are kind of necessary. Like, can you go over the, the basis for why so many or quote unquote, so many?

And then how to get over those fears.

Jason Resnick: Why so many is a math problem? If you have 30%, 40% open rates on your email list, then one in three people check every email, right? So, and most of the time it’s, it’s the same people, so you want to give more at bats. So that’s first and foremost. Secondly, though, each email sets itself up for the overall goal of the campaign.

And so even if you are, you feel awkward, like, Hey, I don’t wanna bother these people. I, you know, I don’t wanna lose them. I mean, ultimately the size of your list is a vanity metric. Followers on social media, same thing. These are individuals on the other side. They gave permission for you to show up in their inbox to help them with a challenge, with a feeling, with whatever it is that you are helping them do.

If what you provide is valuable, they’re not going to mind. But also on the other side is, is if they do unsubscribe, then it just means not right now. Like most of the time the un, I always say, don’t chase the unsubscribes because most of the time it’s not what you do. It’s just how they’re feeling at the moment.

You know? I mean, we just finished up Black Friday, Cyber Monday. I mean, I manage a whole lot of email lists, and those are always the period of time at which everybody’s unsubscribing because they’re getting obliterated in their inbox, and so, I’ve seen people come back over years too, like pop back on the list.

So unsubscribes, I’m not scared of as long as it makes sense for them to get that email in their inbox, that’s really the only hurdle that you have to get over.

Pat Flynn: And I like the idea of thinking, well, you know what? They’ll come back when the time is right. Right. And so in terms of coming back or even just building an email list in general, I know you talk a lot about lead magnets.

It’s very important to us as well. What is working today for lead magnets? I remember in 2010, the first year I built my email list, it was a mistake. That was two years after I started my business. I should have started my email list the moment I started my business. That was, that was a, and, and I made that mistake twice.

I did the same thing. I made that mistake, it’s like I, well, I don’t have anybody here yet. Why would I pay for an email service provider that I don’t have anybody following me yet? Versus investing into email such that you’re now motivated to go and find those people right, and take care of them along the way.

So I made that mistake. But in 2010, the trend, and I mentioned this all the time now because this is what my next book is about. It’s like back then the information itself was the thing that was valuable. It’s like, let’s pour on that information. Let’s make an 82 page PDF file that’s gonna attract people.

And it did. But then over the years, that same pdf file started such dwindle in terms of, of leads, not because there’s less people coming to the website. In fact, there’s more people coming to the website at this point, like 2015, 2016. But because that is not what is valuable anymore. People don’t have the time to read an 82 page PDF or anything like that.

The beauty of this is the things that are working today are seemingly at least easier to create or or less intensive, right? But what is working today? What are you seeing? What’s working for you?

Jason Resnick: You’re right, it’s less intensive to create. Yet what I’ve found is that they almost have to deliver on value real fast.

What I mean by that is, is what I’ve seen is sawdust products, not my term, but it’s a term that I heard somebody else use. Basically. What is it in your every day that you use that you find useful that maybe someone else on the outside of your business would find useful too? Like I have a lot of different frameworks for segmentation.

I have a lot of different checklists and processes for ConvertKit, things like that. I started just posting out a tweet and saying, Hey, I’ve got this document in my Google Drive. Anybody interested in this DM me. Right? You share something like that, you know immediately whether or not it’s valuable or not, right?

Because people start liking, they start retweeting, they start sharing. They come onto your list. They start asking good questions, and all I did was really just go on my Google Drive. I had found a framework that, you know, it, it’s helpful to, to most people paying attention to email marketing and really wanna do email marketing well in their own business.

Pat Flynn: So it’s not even a new thing that you’re necessarily creating or coming up with. It’s just let’s kind of highlight a piece of something I’m already doing and package it into something simple.

Jason Resnick: And in most cases, I mean, I, I use ConvertKit. I could get that landing page up in a matter of 15, 20 minutes, put the, attach the Google Doc to a link in an email and away you go. And so it’s really quick to deploy and then you can actually start to understand, you know, you don’t have to create this all big article around it. You don’t have to go into Canva or Photoshop and create this nice looking thing. I mean, it’s a Google doc, literally just words on a page.

And so you could find out how well this is received first and then if it is something that kind of takes off for you and really aligns with what your goals are for your business, maybe even convert a couple of customers right off the back of it. Then create the other pieces around it. Create the evergreen kind of style blog post and things of that nature.

Pat Flynn: I’ve been noticing a lot of the DM me for this sort of sequences to, to do things versus click on this link, then read this article, then go to the bottom of the article and then subscribe there. I mean, does that still work to have those mechanisms in place of traditional sort of lead capture, opt-in forms on a website to to build an email list?

Do those things, should those still be in place?

Jason Resnick: Yeah, I think they should be in, still in place. Cuz the intent is different, right? So if you are going on Google and you’re searching for something, you find you’re an article, you want that opportunity to capture that person and go deeper with you. The DM sort of thing that you’re seeing on social is really a work around the algorithm.

Right? Because if you share a link on a tweet or Facebook post or something like that, the, the algorithm doesn’t really show things. So the DM kind of one for, and this is kind of how I look at it, yes, it gives us the permission to send them a link to the landing page, but two, I’ve had wonderful engagement and conversations with people and start to understand a little bit more about who my audience is on Twitter at a one-on-one.

And found solutions to problems I didn’t even realize that people had. And so it just kind of amplifies that personality side of me too.

Pat Flynn: I am curious about, let’s keep going on that cuz I think that is the simplest, easy way to get started with building an email list, in my opinion, is to go kind of directly hit people one-on-one in the beginning.

We teach this in our zero to 100 emails in 72 hours challenge. And the fact that dms are so easily accessible now, you can still provide value and learn at the same time, like you just said. It’s just, you’re gonna learn so much at the beginning of your business phase doing that, and grow a list of people who are warm, who wanna learn more from you, and you’re learning more from them.

But I’ve also noticed some people, there’s a, a woman who’s been on the show before of Vanessa Lau, she’s amazing and has some incredible Instagram and YouTube content. She’ll come up with a video on Instagram and she’ll say, Hey, if this is of interest to you, if you want my framework thing. So she’s doing the, the thing that you’re talking about, type in, let me in in the Instagram comments.

And obviously when that happens, when you say that she’s not individually reaching out to you, a bot is, and a bot will say, Hey, like, thanks, I got your message. Here’s the thing. And sometimes it’ll ask you like a quick question up front, or sometimes it’ll take you to a landing page and. Do you think this should be automated like that or can it be, or is there value to that?

Obviously it can scale you, but are you missing out on anything or there’s, are there any red flags or things to worry about when you automate list building via dms in that way?

Jason Resnick: Yeah, I mean, truth be told, I do that on Twitter. You know, not saying that I have a wide following, but to scale posting a DM, you know, reply to me in a dm.

I mean, I’d spend the next 48 hours just answering dms, right? And so that at least gives me the space to deliver what I promised, and then I pick it up after that and follow up with them, try to engage with them. I don’t have any sort of, and and I know Instagram and Facebook Messenger and stuff like you could program these bots and things of that nature.

Twitter doesn’t, I guess they do have those kind of tools. I don’t like using that tool because like you said, I like to actually do engage with people at a one-on-one level as long as they’re willing to. Right? And so I’ll ask a couple of questions. What are they working on that excites them right now?

Things like that, where it’s just learning who they are as individuals and seeing if I can help them in any way. And so I do a mixture just to deliver on the promise that I gave them, just so that it gives me breathing room and follow up when I have the, you know, the bandwidth to actually do so.

Pat Flynn: That makes sense.

What, what tools are you or other people using to do that automation?

Jason Resnick: I use Tweet Hunter, to be honest with you. That’s just even like the tip of the iceberg as far as what Tweet Hunter allows you to do. It has a, a bunch of AI components that are kind of cool to look at, but not really something that I use too much.

What I actually use on Tweet Hunter is a way to keep up with that. Like, it’s like a Twitter crm, if you will, and that actually allows, like we talked about before is reducing the distractions of Twitter. It keeps it within Tweet Hunter’s CRM there that I don’t have all of those other, Hey, oh, so-and-so tweeted about this.

Lemme go down that route, hold for five minutes. Right. So yeah, right. I use Tweet Hunter. I know there’s other tools out there that do something very similar as well.

Pat Flynn: Awesome. And I’m sure there’s many, many more tools and different platforms and sequences that could be used for that.

Again, I’m thinking about objections that a person might be having listening to this. They’re like, okay, I’m gonna DM somebody and, and whether it’s automated or not, tell them, Hey, like, here’s the thing you asked for, but first you gotta gimme your email. How do you position that in a way that doesn’t sound like you’re just kind of like teasing somebody and then obviously asking for an email and taking advantage of that, or there’s a right way to do this and a wrong way to do this. Well, like what’s, what’s the right way to, to do this?

Jason Resnick: Yeah. I mean, truth be told, I’ve, I build a landing page. That’s my process. Build a landing page, quick landing page. I don’t worry about too much on the lightning page, and I get those replies. Like when somebody dms me, they’re like, why didn’t you just send me the thing? Like, why don’t, yeah, yeah. Why do I have to sign up for this?

And, and so I say, you, well, that’s just so how I can deliver it to you, right? Yes. I wanna also help you, and this is what the benefit of signing up to my list will get. You know, I help people scale their business, either spending time away from email marketing or double their email marketing through smart email automations.

And so that’s my hook into the list, and I know that everything isn’t always perfect for everyone else, and it’s their prerogative if they want to drop the email in there or not. Most of the time though, once I say that, and it’s very few, like I, most people don’t really say that, but I do get that. You know, just even in the engaged conversation sometimes they’re like, is this a bot replying to me?

I’ll be like, no, this is me. And so just even in that human to human nature of the dm, it goes a long way with just now the objection’s answered, right? So I just be yourself really is what it comes down to. If people are objecting to this sort of thing, then maybe it’s not right for them, and that’s okay.

You know, it’s the, it doesn’t, they don’t have to sign up for this.

Pat Flynn: Okay. So we, we are building an email list and let’s say we have, you know, 500 people on our list. We’re just starting out small. And we have a product that is coming out that we wanna launch. Maybe it’s a coaching program, maybe it’s an offer or just whatever it might be.

And I know you talk, like you teach this, you talk about it, you work with people and individually create these plans and schedules and such. But let’s just say high level, how much time do I need to warm people up to this offer. If I can move the offer to, let’s say it’s, it’s January and I have this email list of 500 and I have a course, like, can I launch it next week?

Can I launch it, like how much time would be ideal to warm people up, engage them, maybe start with a survey question, et cetera, to segment them and such to the point at which then now we’re launching like what’s a good timeframe for a person to plan before a launch? With regards to the email?

Jason Resnick: I mean, it’s a good question, and I hate to say that it depends, but it does.

But the case of All-Access Pass, it was three weeks, right? If it’s literally inside of a month, we came up with the plan and executed on that plan. And so for me, you’re gonna have the people on your list, there’s gonna be a a percentage of them that is hyper engage with everything that you do. Find out that segment and engage with them as fast as you possibly can, because you could probably offer it to them right today without any sort of big plans, right?

Say, Hey, I have this thing. These are the benefits. Here’s more information. If you’re interested in it, here’s the link and sign up. If you find those people, then you can easily figure out who those people look like and then go backwards to the rest of your list with who these individuals look like, the, the real superfans look like and start to allow for the campaign to have those individuals on your list to identify with the superfans.

So what you want to think about really is, is your cadence, right? So go back in time, like, how long do I need to plan this out? If you’re sending emails on a regular basis, let’s say once a week, then maybe it is three weeks, maybe it is a month, right? As long as you can execute on really figuring out who your offers appeals to and actually can get results for, then you really just have to give the path from everyone else so that they can see themselves in people that are already getting results from the offer. It’s not all that hard. A lot of people overcomplicate it. Yeah. You see a lot of the templates and sequences out there and courses and things of that nature to really overcomplicate email and email marketing. And it’s not it. When you really boil it down to it’s you and your subscriber talk it to each other through email, and if you make it such like as simple as that, amazing things happen just from that.

Pat Flynn: I like that framework, and it’s not talking in real time. It’s having a conversation that you know is going to be had already because you know who that person is. Right? So you’re saying the things a person might, you know, a person thinking about buying your offer might go, well, how do I know this works?

If you know that that’s a question they’re probably gonna ask themselves, then in the email sequence, write an email that maybe even just literally calls that out. How do you know if this is gonna work? Well, let me tell you the story, you know, Maria, et cetera, et cetera, went through this process, did the same thing, had the same thoughts as you, and look where they’re at now.

And if this sounds like you and you had the same challenges, here’s the offer, right? There might be other questions that people have that, that you can then address. And those questions are so easy to find when you have those initial conversations and you talk to people and in, in, in the dms and stuff.

And I love that there’s this now wave of people coming into this space to teach entrepreneurship who are really telling people like yourself, like us that we shouting from the rooftops for years, which is like, get out from behind your keyboard and go out and talk to people. Like that’s how you grow your business.

You remove the guesswork by doing that, and it’s the fastest way to all the things. Figuring out what you’re doing right, figuring out what you’re doing wrong, figuring out exactly the language you should use, et cetera. And email is just a mechanism to communicate, right? It’s not sales platform. It is a communication platform, and communication part is definitely key.

Now, communication is a two-way street and you have to know how to present certain things. So what’s the data as we close in here, what? What is the most important data to you during a launch campaign to pay attention to? What are you looking at? How are you readjusting if needed, sort of a mid-campaign so we can maybe rescue things if we, if we need them or whatnot. Like what’s important to you after the launch, because you’ve already written all the emails, you’ve hopefully nailed the messaging and the positioning. Is it kind of just set and forget and kind of hope for the best, or are you actively looking at things and what are you looking at?

Jason Resnick: No, I’m definitely actively looking at things because I want, as I said, we have a story arc that we wanna have with the campaign and I wanna make sure that, not to sound like it’s a crystal ball that I’m looking forward into and can predict the future, but I wanna actually be able to understand and know that we’re going in the direction where we assume that we can.

And so I will look at any metrics, any clicks, any replies, anything on social with regard to that. Right? And so even socials outside of email. So just really closely paying attention to specifically the replies like that, you know, hard example here is, is those people that answered certain things in that survey that we ran, now we have the data there. And so when people don’t take up on All-Access Pass yet, we know that they are distracted because they answered in the survey. At some point in time, we may share stories and testimonials of people that said, Hey, until All-Access Passed, I was extremely distracted with everything.

I didn’t, you know, my kids in the background, cat running across the board, you know, Running around the kids all over the place and I couldn’t get any focus, right? That alignment there then shows the people that are telling us that they are distracted. They could see themselves in somebody in their, that result, and you could tailor the campaigns that way.

Obviously there were specific goals that we wanted to reach for signing up. We wanted to make sure that, you know, we reach those goals. So whatever is going to, whatever’s gonna round out those numbers, whether that’s clicks, whether that is answers to the survey, it’s a math problem at the end of the game, right?

And so understanding, Hey, my click rate is this. Answers to surveys is this. The experience that I have when running something of this nature, I know the percentages is down the line. I just wanna make sure everything’s gonna line up. And then if it doesn’t line up, how can we adjust in the middle? And adjusting is really just like, playing baseball or football or anything like that during the game, you’re gonna have to call an audible or something like that and, and, and change your plan.

But there’s always a way to kind of adjust knowing what your end game is and keeping that in plain view so that the whole team has insight into that. And we can say, Hey, look, I, I’m starting to see a trend in this. Means that maybe we’re not gonna meet that goal. So let’s try to figure out how we can, or the other side, like, Hey, we had a goal of January 1 having, you know, ex members sign up.

We might eat this before Christmas. That’s awesome. You know, or even before that. And so you could really adjust in that way too, because you might have the sequence built. To go further and further and further when you meet your goals before that. So yes, the goals, the metrics, things like that is all a sort of a collaboration.

Revenue, obviously, quantity of members, sales, that sort of stuff is kind of pretty obvious, but understanding based on the business, what the percentages are to get to those numbers, you have to kind of work backwards up and just do the math, right? So if you have 500 people on your list, you have an open rate of 30%, you have a click rate of 10%, okay?

You want to get 10 people in your thing. How long is it gonna take to get 10 people from the 500? And you do the math problem that way.

Pat Flynn: Love it. I mean, you make it sound so simple and it can be, and like you said, we often try to overcomplicate things, but I think if you know what your goal is in mind and you know who it is you’re speaking to and what their problems are, it just makes you know it, that’s like half the battle right there, right?

And, and then it’s just writing the right words to help a person make a decision and whatnot. And, you know, we didn’t even get into evergreen and all that kind of stuff, which is basically the same principles, right? Except more in a, in an automated fashion, again, based segmentation and stuff, but you have a lot of resources that people can come into over at

Jason, where can people go to find the best resources to help with this now? Because I love that you are stepping forward to amplify this message of, you know, email can be done with grace in a correct manner without feeling slimy and without annoying a bunch of people. And, and I just, again, I wanted to amplify that here for you.

So where can people go from here to find out more info?

Jason Resnick: Yeah, you could go to and I actually have, if you have ConvertKit, great, if you don’t, this will still work for you. It is just a resource around sort of a behavioral type of campaign, and it’s really just at the core of it is, is somebody’s clicking on some links in your email, you can get them over into a sales campaign that is tailored in a matter of speaking towards their needs, and so you can go get that resource. Again, that’s at and I’m always on Twitter, as we mentioned. It’s kind of like the only social media platform that, I mean, I’m on all of them, but that’s the only one I pay attention to for at least the time being for whatever that’s worth.

Yeah. And my dms are open. I’m always open to any sort of conversation around email.

Pat Flynn: Cool. Jason, thank you so much. This has been an absolute pleasure. What’s your Twitter handle? Is it @Rezzz with three Zs?

Jason Resnick: Yeah, with three Zs and that’s a story for another time.

Pat Flynn: All right, no worries. Hey, thank you so much. I appreciate your time and look forward to connecting again soon.

And again, thanks for all the hard work you’re doing, not just for us, but for everybody in the community to help make email a little bit easier to, to manage and, and handle. So thank you again so much and we’ll talk soon.

Jason Resnick: Thanks, pat.

Pat Flynn: All right. I hope you enjoyed that episode with Jason. As you can see, just such a cool down to earth guy who knows his stuff and who’s in this for the right reasons.

If you wanna check him out,, and he’s got a lot of great resources there. And also on Twitter @Rezzz. So Rez, and again, hopefully your New Year’s Rez, was to do better things in your business. See what I did there? And so you should definitely check out Nurture Kit and the All-Access Pass as well.

There are some email related things that you can get access to, including groups and communities of people who are all doing this with you. And a big shoutout cuz this was sort of a callback to December, 2022, big shout out and thank you to all the founding members of the All-Access Pass.

We appreciate you. We’re looking forward to welcoming new members all the time, so definitely check it out., access to all of our courses and workshops, but that alone isn’t enough. That would actually be too overwhelming. You need the guidance and the pathways through those things to have that experience that’s different than, for example, somebody handing you a book and saying, good luck. This is handing you a book, handing other people those same books and say, Hey, let’s discuss this. Let’s go through it together, sort of like a book club. And so go through our courses like that with others.

Big thank you to Jason. Thank you you to you for listening and watching perhaps all the way through, and I look forward to serving you next week. Until then, cheers, peace out, take care. And as always, Team Flynn for the win.

Thanks for listening to the Smart Passive Income Podcast at I’m your host, Pat Flynn. Our senior producer is David Grabowski. Our series producer is Paul Grigoras, and our executive producer is Matt Gartland. Sound editing by Duncan Brown. The Smart Passive Income Podcast is a production of SPI Media. We’ll catch you in the next session.

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