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SPI 779: Building a Brand that Other Brands Want to Work With — with Justin Moore

Many creators struggle with finding and negotiating sponsorships. One of the problems is that they’re often not aiming for win-win-win deals. For an effective partnership, the value proposition should be obvious to you, the brand you’re promoting, and your audience.

So, how do you ask the right questions to uncover unexpected sponsorship opportunities?

My returning guest, Justin Moore, is the founder of Creator Wizard. Since our last chat in episode 631, his incredible work helping people learn about brand deals has been blowing up online. Today, Justin’s back on the show to share a look at his business and the mindset that’s helping him grow!

We dive into Justin’s Sponsorship Strategy Summit, the value of networking and building relationships, finding the right mastermind group to help you level up, and why you should share case studies and success stories.

Don’t miss this inspiring glimpse at Justin’s business and entrepreneurial journey. Listen in and enjoy!

Today’s Guest

Justin Moore

Justin Moore is a sponsorship coach and the founder of Creator Wizard, a school and community that teaches you how to find and negotiate your dream brand deals so that you stop leaving thousands on the table.

Along with his wife April, he has been a full-time creator for over eight years and has personally made over $4M working with brands. He also ran an influencer marketing agency for over seven years that has helped other creators earn an additional $3M.

Justin brings a very unique perspective because not only has he been a creator in the trenches doing sponsorships for years but by running an agency, he has insider knowledge of how big brands choose which influencers to partner with and why they pass on others. Justin’s mission is to enable creators big and small to land 1 million paid brand partnerships by 2032.

You’ll Learn


SPI 779: Building a Brand that Other Brands Want to Work With with Justin Moore

Justin Moore: So much of my journey as a creator, as an online business owner, it’s been so lonely. It’s so hard to relate to people in your life who just don’t do this type of thing. And so having the humility is such a critical part of having a long, sustainable, fulfilled career that if you’re not able to reach out and be like, “Hey, I don’t know what I’m doing, can you like give me some advice?”

Even though like, of course, I have tens of thousands of followers and I have this big business that maybe it seems like I know what I’m doing, but I don’t. You just have new challenges that you get to at each different phase. So, I really feel like if you can get your ego in check, man, doors will open for you.

Pat Flynn: A couple hundred episodes ago, we had an expert on sponsorships come on. How to do brand deals and brand partnerships, how to do integrations with other companies into your brand so that you could generate more money. And that person was Justin Moore. And since then he’s actually blown up quite a bit. I see a number of different people recommending him in their lineups of top creators to follow, top creators to help you generate more revenue.

So I wanted to bring Justin back on to not go over the specific A to Z step by step process because we’ve already talked about that. That was back in episode 631 called Brand Deals and Sponsorships for Every Creator. Today we’re going to talk more about Justin’s business and how he’s gotten to this point and some of the things that he’s done related to positioning, some of the ups, a lot of the downs, where this all started.

And we have a lot of people who request to come on this show because they want to share their story, they think it’s inspiring, and in many cases it is. But I wanted to invite Justin on personally To tell you his story and share a little bit more about the behind the scenes of what’s going on. And what’s really cool is he’s still in the process of building.

He’s still figuring things out. And this is the perfect time to invite somebody on the show who’s on the up and up so that we can all learn from what is working right now. So here he is, Justin Moore. You can find him as well at It’s got a community of tens of thousands. He’s helped them make millions of dollars in brand deals, and he can help you too.

Here he is Justin Moore from

Announcer: You’re listening to the Smart Passive Income Podcast, a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network, a show that’s all about working hard now, so you can sit back and reap the benefits later. And now your host, he blames Instagram for his new skincare routine, Pat Flynn.

Pat Flynn: Justin, welcome back to SPI, man. Thanks for being here.

Justin Moore: What’s up, Pat? Glad to be back.

Pat Flynn: You are making waves in the space. Now, your name keeps coming up. I hear everybody from Roberto Blake to just anybody who’s wanting to generate more revenue and discovering that, wow, sponsorships can be like a real thing.

They’re coming to you. You have made that name for yourself. I want to congratulate you on that. Cause the last time you were on here. You were at the top as well, but not maybe as widespread or widely known just good job, man. That’s awesome.

Justin Moore: Dude, I appreciate that so much, man. And I have to share a quick anecdote cuz I was at the everything food conference Like I don’t even know five years ago six years ago, and I remember seeing you up on the stage and I was like dang Pat Flynn I’ve been listening to your podcast for so long and I was like man that guy is at the top of his game.

And so to be here talking with you is just very surreal right now. So I appreciate that.

Pat Flynn: Thank you. I remember that event. Somebody, a sponsor there, actually, because in the, in the blogosphere, like sponsorships are very big, especially in the food blogging space. And I remember at that event, because there were a lot of people who were food bloggers there, there were a lot of sponsors who like to show up and buy a booth and, and kind of enter that world.

And one of those, I can’t remember the name of the company. Unfortunately, it was a while ago, but they gave me the keynote speaker who’s not in the food space, some free swag. And one of those pieces was a meat thermometer. They gave me a meat thermometer and it’s this one where like the needle kind of folds into itself.

So it’s safe and it just doesn’t stick out and stuff. And it’s electronic digital read and they were like, Hey Pat, can you in exchange for this, just can you integrate this meat thermometer into your talk? And I was like, okay, I’ve had this talk for a while and it was like structured perfectly. And you’re inserting this sort of audible and you’ve helped me out.

And. You know, I want to do this and do right by the conference and for the people who brought me here. So, yeah, I’m going to, I’ll figure it out. And then I ended up integrating it in a way where you’re like, Hey, you just have to like put yourself into your content when you’re an affiliate. Because my talk was about affiliate marketing.

I ended up taking this thing out of my pocket and saying, You see this thing? To me, it looks like a narwhal. So I’m going to call this my narwhal meat thermometer. And so when you say that in your content, now everybody’s going to think of their meat thermometer as a narwhal. And it was just the strangest, weirdest integration I’ve ever had.

But it’s so memorable. Anyway, that’s a little bit part of your world because you are in sponsorships and brand integrations and sometimes they work well and maybe sometimes they don’t. But do you have a weird, crazy brand integration story that you’d like to share perhaps?

Justin Moore: I love that that was like right at the tip of your tongue to tell that story, when I just randomly threw out that memory.

You know, I have, There’s so many, I mean, I’ve done 550 sponsorships personally over, over the last 15 years or so, along with my wife. And thousands through the agency. So you name it, man. I’ve basically seen every, every scenario, horror stories, hilarious stories. You know, it’s funny though, because this on the topic of storytelling of creating something memorable, I think not often enough we don’t realize like when we do sponsorships as creators or business owners or things like that, we don’t realize how important it is to craft a story around the product of how it’s actually going to serve our audience. I talk about the fact that like a lot of people think of sponsorships is kind of like win win, right?

It’s like, yeah, I’m getting paid. That’s cool. And then obviously the brand is winning because they’re getting to access like, you know, a pool of prospective customers ideally. Right. But it’s like, it’s that last win, which is like, your audience should be winning too. And if you’re not proactively thinking, okay, like what are the objections that my audiences are going to have around this?

How can I tell a story to help it relate to them? Help me explain to them in their mind’s eye, why purchasing this product or a patronizing this particular sponsor is going to help them, them as well. And I think that’s oftentimes missing from the podcast ad read or the YouTube integration of the tick tock, you know sponsorship or something like that.

And so I love that, that anecdote from you around the Narwhal thermometer. And I’m also always going to remember that now.

Pat Flynn: When you say that it reminds me of those old school and I say old school, it’s not that long ago. But it was the Gimlet Media startup podcast that had these. Oh my God, I loved it.

Right? Like, do you remember those, those ads? They were there for like MailChimp, right? Yeah. Yeah. They were so like bespoke. Yeah. Like you could hear the sound of people as if they were on the streets of New York talking about email and MailChimp, and it just sounded so real. And they even had, I think the founder of MailChimp or somebody really high up on the show at one point.

And it was, like they were offering value and giving tips about building a startup because that’s what Gimlet Media was trying to do and it just felt natural like no, I did not want to skip those like I was actually looking forward to them.

Justin Moore: You know, the other thing I think that’s interesting when you kind of have a pattern interrupt like that, that can really help sometimes is involving your audience.

Much more in the conversation around sponsorships because I think working with partners is can be kind of a scary thing to certain people because they are fearful of getting called a sellout or they’re fearful of like, you know, ruining the creative purity of their craft and this type of thing. And one I think really effective strategy is like actually asking your audience, like, Hey, like what types of things are going on in your life?

What’s keeping you up at night? What brands and products and services are you using and loving right now? Just tell me more about you. Get, get, get some psychographic texture behind what actually makes them tick beyond the demographics, beyond the analytics that you’re seeing in your social platform, you know, or your email subscriber, your ESP or whatever, like that makes it a lot easier to, to not be scared about it anymore.

If you survey your audience and find out, I have a quick, quick anecdote here, one of my, my clients, he’s in the kind of the tech focus niche, and he was really kind of struggling to find brands that, you know, it’s like the same old brands that everyone works with in like the tech niche. Right. And he was just kind of, Oh man, is this it?

And so I encouraged him to do this exercise around surveying his audience. And he was shocked. He did this survey on his YouTube community tab where he found out that he talks about tech and kind of like online privacy and security and stuff. And he’s, he did this survey. And found out that 70 percent of his audience is interested in home security as well.

It makes sense, right? It’s like people who want to stay secure online, they probably want to keep their family safe in real life too. Right? And so he turned around and crafted a really compelling pitch to a residential alarm company, like simply safe or alarm. com or whatever. And so it’s like, and that all came from like learning more about the audience.

And so when you can involve them more in the process, it really unlocks a lot of doors.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, so true. And that’s a common thing when it comes to just creating any business. When there’s a value exchange, who ultimately is going to benefit from that value? Talk to those people because that’s how you know what is of value to them.

Speaking of value, I know that you’ve been providing a lot of it through some great, I follow you on X probably more than anywhere else. And just, I really enjoy the way you engage and you tell story. You put a little comedy into it. Every once in a while, you put your own personality into it as well. How long has it taken you to kind of find your groove?

And I know that we’re always still working on finding ourselves and getting better, but it seems you’ve. hit a really good stride lately. Did anything account for that? Was there a moment where you’re like, yes, I found myself. I got it. Let’s lean into it now. Or tell me about that.

Justin Moore: I appreciate that, dude. I think the moment for me was initially when I first started talking about this, specifically this stuff around sponsorships, I felt like I had to be super buttoned up. I had just come from essentially seven years of running an influencer marketing agency where all of my conversations were with buttoned up traditional brands and advertisers where I was in these boardrooms with these suits basically.

And I felt like I had to be a certain way. I had to be, you know, the professional buttoned up suit wearing type of guy. And so a lot of my early content came across quite stilted in that way. And very professional. You can go back and look at my YouTube channel, like some of the early videos, right? It was very formal.

I was wearing a button up shirt, like I just like an idiot, right? But it was like, it was just, it felt like that was what I was supposed to do. But like anyone who would ever meet me in real life would always, always cracking jokes. I’m like the least serious person you can imagine. I’m like a meme Lord, you know, like people just, you know, it’s just like, this is part of my personality.

And so people would always be like, wow, that’s very surprising to me. I, that’s not the gist that I got from, from your social media presence. And I, I sat down and I, and I thought, I was like, I need to reconcile this because that just doesn’t feel, that feels like weird. That feels wrong that people there’s like this Jekyll and Hyde to my personality.

Right, and so after that moment, when I ate. Kind of went to my first kind of creator conference in that way and people knew me from that. I was like, I don’t like that. I want people to like, know that that’s me, that I’m like this super unserious person. The first thing I did is I, I made a rap about sponsorships because I’ve been a musician my whole life.

And I was like, you know what, I’m just going to combine these two passions, like this really nerdy topic around sponsorship strategy. And I’m going to make, I’m going to write lyrics. I’m going to make a rap. And so like people absolutely, they’re like, what? Like this is bizarre. Like I didn’t know you had this like ability, this talent or whatever.

And so ever since then, I just, I’m, I would call my content strategy unhinged. That’s the best way to describe it. I feel like people resonate.

Pat Flynn: I mean, we do. And now I want to hear this rap. I don’t know if you still have it available, but.

Justin Moore: Oh God. Well, I’ll, how about I’ll send it to you and you can insert it right here.

Pat Flynn: Oh, yes.

Justin Moore: Okay. How long is it? 60 seconds. Okay.

Pat Flynn: That’s where it’s going to go. Right there. Right there. Perfect. All right.

Justin Moore: Justin, why are brands ghosting me? First of all, you’re not contacting the right person because they don’t control the purse strings, spamming [email protected]. You’re sliding in their DMS wrong.

It’s all about finesse. You see, you’ve got to do research and try to find out a little bit more about their strategy. So I shouldn’t say, Hey, I love your brand! Let’s collab! It’ll be grand! You can do that if you like being ignored and shouting into an eternal void. Asking for money is not taboo. If you make the pitch about them, not you.

Pat Flynn: Everybody just listen to you rap and is either still here or not.

Justin Moore: Well, I want to see the retention chart on this episode.

Pat Flynn: It might actually be the most replayed part, so it actually could probably help do. That’s awesome. I know you’re also working on a book to sort of further your, your reach and amplify this, this momentum that you have, which is really cool.

I also know that you have gone through an interesting pathway to this book because you reached out to me for a little bit of advice, and it was really cool to see it all happen and all unfold in the way it did. Might you be okay sharing a little bit of the behind the scenes with the origin story of this book and how you’ve gotten to where it’s at?

Justin Moore: I am such an open book with this stuff because I feel like too often on a lot of podcasts and a lot of episodes, everyone’s always kind of sharing this like buttoned up, like, look at my business, I have it all figured out. From the beginning, I, I have always felt like I have no idea what I’m doing. And so my whole goal has been to like, let me go like ask people who seem like they know more than they have done it before to just like ask them for advice.

Because I, I, I’m just making it up as I go. And I feel like even now, even though I’ve seen, you know, some, some success, like, I still feel like I have no idea what I’m doing. And so the book is no exception. When I decided that I did want to write a book and kind of, you know, that there really isn’t a definitive book on sponsorship strategy. There’s some kind of old textbooks and kind of more corporate type books on, on this topic, negotiation. Negotiation is a common topic amongst like kind of pop business books. I guess you could say there’s some, there’s some good ones out there, but like nothing really tactical.

Right. And so I was like, I should probably be the guy to write that book. However, I was really concerned about cannibalizing other aspects of my business, like I’ll just be totally frank. Like I have a course, right. Well, called Brand Deal Wizard, which is, you know, one of the primary revenue drivers from, for my business, you know, it’s, it’s a larger price point at the time of recording.

It’s $1497 basically. And that will take you through the complete nuts and bolts of creating a sponsorship strategy. And so I was really concerned. I was like, okay, if I like. Just like word vomit everything that I know about sponsorships into this $30 book or $20 book like holy cow, that’s gonna crush my my business, right?

I know I’m not I’m not gonna be able to sustain myself and and if like having a larger impact on more people is what I want to do. I gotta be able to keep the business running And so this was like the flawed starting point. I was like, okay, well, I can’t write the book about sponsorships because then this is going to happen and I’m going to run the business into the ground.

And so at that point is when I, I got down this path of like, okay, well let me write a book that’s like more kind of about this spiky point of view that I have around the managers because that’s also something that I, you know, have kind of attracted some not controversy but differing opinions, let’s say, where, you know, I fundamentally believe that you do not need to have a manager in your business or even someone doing like outbound sales for you.

I believe as a creator or as a business owner, you should be doing that. It’s actually you. You should be doing that. head of sales, head of business development for a long time. And actually you’re the one on the phone calls with the brands and the prospective partners and this type of thing because at the end of the day, that’s really who they want to work with.

And yes, you can have operational support and admin logistics help and all that stuff too. But it’s really you, you, you’re the person who should be that person. And so I rustled a lot of feathers with that comment because there’s, I have a lot of friends, I have a lot of managers, agents, brokers in this space who are like, what are you doing?

You’re telling people not to hire managers, not to hire agents. And so I was like, I’m going to write a book about that. I’m going to write a book about this idea that like, you can do it all yourself. And on the surface, I got really excited about that. I went, I got really far down that path. I hired a book coach.

I spent a bunch of money. I had an outline, I had all this stuff. And then I came to this crossroads and this is when I really reached out to you where I was just like, man, I emailed my list. This is what happened. Pat is I emailed my list and be like, Oh, I’m so excited. I’m going to be writing this book called fire your manager.

And. I cannot tell you so many people responded to me and were like, what on earth are you doing? Like that is not the right book for you to write at this point. And in fact, this is really what you said. And maybe, maybe I’ll, I’ll kick it to you because I would love to, maybe you can recount kind of the advice that you gave to me.

Cause it was about the kind of sunk costs fallacy. Cause it was a game changer for me.

Pat Flynn: Yeah. I mean, I’ve, I had heard this as well and I lived through it. Right. When I was laid off in 08. I had a choice to go into entrepreneurship, but a lot of what was pulling me back was the fact that I had dedicated so many years to architecture, that this is the career I was in, that this is what my parents paid me to go to college for, et cetera.

And therefore I shouldn’t look for something new because I had already dedicated this much time into path number one. And of course, looking back, it was the best thing that ever happened to me to get laid off, to let go, to grow into this new space, if you will. But I was noticing a similar pattern with how you were describing your pull toward the initial thing, the, the, what you thought and, and had invested money into right with a writing coach or a book coach to create that outline to write the book, to have a lot of the book written.

And I think it was Stephen King who said, you know, one of the hardest things to do is to like kill your darlings or whatever in his writing. And I don’t know if this necessarily is a one to one metaphor, but it’s hard to get rid of things that you’ve worked so hard on already, but. I could also sense that with the momentum that you’ve had, that there was this push and pull, and this is exactly why I was so grateful you reached out.

Not only because I felt honored that you would trust me with advice, but I knew that you would also listen. You made, I think, a really smart decision. And you know, Now, probably at this point, Justin, you could probably go, yeah, okay. That was definitely the right decision. It’s obvious now, but in the moment it’s hard, right?

Like, how do you recommend a person who might be in a push pull situation to, I mean, you did all the right things. You, you reached out and how do you stay open to feedback and how do you weigh your decision one way or another?

Justin Moore: It’s so hard, man, because like throughout so much of my journey as a creator, as an online business owner, it’s been so lonely.

It’s so hard to relate to other friends, family, other people in your life who just don’t do this type of thing that struggles that are, you know, that you experience putting yourself out there receiving hate trolls, like you name it. There’s all this really weird stuff that comes with like being on the internet that a lot of people don’t really quite understand.

And so having the humility I think is like such a critical part of having a long, sustainable, fulfilled career on the internet that if you’re not able to reach out and be like, Hey, I don’t know what I’m doing. Can you like give me some advice? Right. Even though like, yeah, you may. Yeah, of course, I have tens of thousands of followers and I have this big business that on the outside looking in, maybe it seems like I know what I’m doing, but I don’t, I don’t really think anyone does.

It’s like, you know, you just have like a, an other, like new challenges that you get to at each different phase. Right. And so I’m at the phase right now where, yeah, I want, I want to write the book. I’m going to launch a conference. I’m going to do all, I have all these big aspirations, but I don’t know what I’m doing.

And so, like, I, I really feel like if you can get your ego in check, like, man, doors will open for you. I really feel that.

Pat Flynn: I’m into that for sure. So book coming event, tell me a little bit more about that. And the reason why I’m asking all these questions, you know, we had you on the show once before. And this was in November of 2022.

So it’s been, it’s been a little bit. That was a timeless episode. I’m going to definitely make sure to link back. I think you should definitely check that out. The fact that you are still here after that wrap probably means you’re curious enough to, to, to go into that. You want more? Yes. We need more wraps.

More Justin, more raps, just, yeah. Anyway, there’s not, we needed an album. Eventually Flava J is the name Flava J. Yes. So you can go get more Flava J on that episode. And that was episode, I have the number here. Episode 631 in case you want to find that. So brand deals and sponsorships. That is a timeless episode.

We go into a lot of detail. Justin goes deep into, okay, this is how you do. a sponsorship and actually make it a win and make it beneficial for the company that you’re working with. You know, you had offered some amazing strategies going into, for example, a company’s Instagram and going into the past for the previous years, for example, Mother’s Day promotion and being proactive with the upcoming Mother’s Day promotion.

Cause you know, money’s being spent around that time and they want to look for influencers and brands who get it and who can be proactive with that. That says a lot. So go, go listen to that episode go, 631. But we’re diving into your business now, Justin, which I think is really cool. Cause it’s like, it’s in motion and it’s in flux.

There’s a lot of decisions to be made. What are some of the other heavy decisions that you’re having to make kind of in this moment right now?

Justin Moore: Man, it’s so true. I feel like I’m in the messy middle, man. Like that, that’s the best way to describe it. I love that book, by the way, I feel like I’ve been in the messy middle for a long time.

And I think the biggest well, first I’ll mention, I’ll just, I’ll, I’ll just do a drop about the conference Sponsorship Strategy Summit. Pat, nice. How does that hit you? There’s nothing. Yeah. I’m thinking S cubed, maybe, maybe triple S, you know, there’s nothing that exists like this. There’s, there’s some kind of corporatey type partnership events, but nothing about sponsorship strategy for kind of what we do, you know, as entrepreneurs, creators, influencers, this type of thing.

And so I have this, vision of like bringing together both brands and creators and like making this panels and keynotes and, you know, network to like, just make this process better for everyone. Everyone always complains on both sides of like, Oh, I hate brands or, Oh, I hate creators. They’re, they suck.

They’re entitled. Like, you know, I just like, I want to have a forum to like, just try to make this stuff better for everyone, you know? So excited about that in in 2025. But with respect to like the business structure, I’m really struggling right now because like if I, can give a quick overview of like my, I guess you could call it my offer ladder, which is like the various ways in which you can kind of hire me.

Obviously I’m the very, at the very beginning, I have so much free stuff on the internet, right? I have my free newsletter, by the way. And then I have my, all my content on the internet. So many YouTube videos, public coaching calls out there, my podcast, like social media, everything.

So, so much stuff for free. And then, yeah, if you want to hire me, sure. Sounds good. I’ve got this course, $1497, you’ll learn everything you need to know. You essentially get lifetime access to the trainings, the community, but critically the community, the forums itself are peer led. So it’s like all the alumni in there, all of the people who are currently in the program.

And they’re all kind of networking, answering each other’s questions, this type of thing. And so we, we kind of make a distinction that like, look, don’t look to me or anyone on my team to like come in there and like give you like 24 hour turnaround times, like help you negotiate and price a particular deal.

Like, that’s not what the goal of the forums is. It’s like, you can help each other in there. Right. And so, however, if you do need support, we have this other option. And so this is kind of the next item on the, I guess you could call it offer ladder, which is called my wizards guild, which is twice weekly, asynchronous private coaching, meaning that if you actually need our help negotiating a deal, figuring out how much to charge this type of thing, that’s a thousand a month, right?

You get eight touch points. Basically twice a week, every Tuesday and Thursday, and you can get into a private room. So you’re not sharing that data with anyone in like the public community on Circle or whatever. Like you get a private room with us and we’re gonna help you negotiate that. And so critically going back to that whole fire your manager thing, like we’re not your manager.

We’re not your, we’re not an agent. We’re not a broker. We’re not taking any percentage of your deals. You keep a hundred percent. It’s basically fee only. And so the people that are in there usually are six figure plus businesses. They’re, you know, so paying us essentially 10 K a year, which is like the annual commitment is a no brainer, you know, to, to have us on speed dial essentially to help them.

And so the big challenge that I’m trying to reconcile here, it’s this kind of like wink, wink, nod, nod thing in the community where it’s like, I really do want to support. people who are alumni of the program. But it’s like, it’s really difficult from an operational and even financial perspective to like devote a ton of resources to people that have done kind of a one time payment, one time investment into the program.

And so, and so that’s number one. Then the number two is that like, if I think about the problem that we’re helping people solve, which is like sponsorship strategy, It’s kind of an infinite problem, right? Because it’s like you, you can learn all the baseline skills, but then every new deal you get, sometimes it’s like there’s an esoteric component, right?

It’s like, Oh yeah, but what about this thing? Like, what do I do when the brand asks this? You know, like I’ve never seen that before, right. And so I would love to design a business structure that allows us to serve people well honoring that. Right. And so my mind instantly goes to like, maybe make like a membership makes more sense.

Maybe there’s like three tiers, right? You’ve got the basic tier, which is like, you get access to the courses, not the forums though. Maybe the public support tier of the membership is like an annual commitment. And it’s like, you get the courses, you get, you know, the forums, we will help you publicly though, in the forums, our team now directly supporting you.

And then you’ve got the private membership, which is like, you know, that, asynchronous stuff. And so I feel like that would allow us to invest in the right type of support that I want to give people rather than this kind of weird, like middle ground that I’m at right now. And so, like, I literally, I do not have the answer, Pat.

Like, I’m in the middle of this right now. And so I’m just gonna, like, throw that to you and, like, would love to get your kind of high level thoughts.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, I mean, this is why I love this, because, you know, you’re in literally in the middle of it. And these are some of the best episodes because we don’t know what the right answer is.

I’m curious about how you are looking to find that answer. And it seems like a strategy that you have is always to go to other people who have perhaps solved a similar kind of problem and kind of just ask around and how do you do your research for what next moves to make in your business? Because, I mean, there’s obviously an infinite amount of information and examples and even ways that you could go.

How are you filtering all the information that’s coming your way and all the help?

Justin Moore: So I try to stay as plugged in as possible into. Other people who are kind of in this ecosystem. For example, I know that you guys did it made a similar transition. I know that there’s folks out there like Mariah cause Stu McLaren who talk about memberships.

So I’m sure that like, okay. Those people have probably figured it out. So I should probably follow them, watch their courses. I know Jay has a course about creating a, I think it’s called beloved membership. So there’s like other people, other people in my network that like, I think probably would have some pretty good advice around this.

And so the way in which I’ve approached from starting the business to now, it’s this idea of just like, I just feel like I could help everyone that I possibly can. If anyone needs help on sponsorships, I’m just like, help them. And like, maybe one day, I’ll be able to like, ask them for help, or ask them for a favor, or something like that.

I’m not looking for a quid pro quo type thing, but like, maybe one day, there will be an opportunity for me to get some advice on something that’s really tricky. I feel as though I’ve built up a lot of People in my corner, I guess, where I can come to you, for example, and be like, Pat, like, what do I do here, dude?

You know, like that. I felt comfortable enough to like, ask you for advice about the book. And like, I wouldn’t have, when we first did the podcast episode together, I didn’t feel like we knew each other as good at that time. But, but over the last several years, we’ve built up a relationship. You’ve come to me for advice about sponsorships.

I’ve helped you out. Yeah. So it’s like, it’s this kind of thing where it’s not a transactional friendship or relationship. It’s just like people helping each other out. And I think, I don’t know. I guess that’s the way. Yeah, I’ve always approached it where it’s like, you know, if I, if I need the support, I’ll ask people or I’ll purchase a course or I’ll, you know, pay someone for their time.

Just like the conference I was mentioning, I, I, I put out a tweet. I was just like, who can I hire for, like, a consulting session to tell me how to like, not lose money on a conference or like a mastermind or something. Right? And so it was just like, I, I don’t know what I’m doing, so I, I might as well, you know, ask people who, who do.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, that’s great. That’s the way to fast forward to the right answers for sure. And this is exactly like everything you said is exactly how I learned as well, which, which I love. And it really starts with relationships and digging your well before you’re thirsty. Jordan Harbinger came on at one point and said, you know, if you’re, if you’re in the future, you best hopefully have already offered that person something prior to that.

And it’s something that I see you do and you’re doing a great job. So you know, in terms of specifically your situation where you’re at now, I think micro experiments are always a great way to go about it. That’s how we try to figure out what the answers are before, you know, making a permanent decision.

Can we test something out when we were running our accelerators, you know, let’s try one cohort and just see what happens. We’re not going to commit to it forever, but this is a hypothesis that people are going to have a better experience and be able to go through this, learn better and get better results and transform if they go alongside other people.

And if it doesn’t work out great, we never committed to anything, but we’re experimenting just in case. And you’re doing that here as well. And I think the biggest thing is with all the different options out there and the things that you’re trying, pay close attention to where within that you are getting fired up, like super stoked about stuff and where within that you’re starting to go, fine, I’ll do it.

Right, when you start to early on decipher between those two kind of buckets in your energy, it starts to become very clear which direction you will likely succeed most. It’s not always a one on one correlation, but it often is because you’re feeling that energy and so will your audience on the other side.

So whether it’s these more public forums or more private things. I love the idea of a private space. Like if I’m a brand and I’m like, I just need help. And I want sponsorships, but I don’t want to share sensitive information. I mean, that program that you have, what, what is that called? The, the wizard, Wizard’s Guild, Wizard’s Guild.

Yeah. I mean, send me to Hogwarts. That’s where I want to go because that’s where I can get direct access to the team for X amount of time. And the ROI is so obvious that that’s at this point, right? I can just pay this amount of money. And I know that even just one deal that I wouldn’t have gotten, yeah, would have helped make it worth it for sure. And then one thing that I would suggest for you, Justin, that I haven’t quite seen yet, and I hope that you’re okay with me offering this advice is I want to hear more stories like real stories on the outside as on Twitter, on Instagram of specific people who have done it themselves, right?

Cause I know you’re the expert, but when I see somebody who wasn’t, who then does it and then they go, yeah, it was Justin’s program. It was Justin who said this, like that is super inspirational. And the reason why I’m thinking about this is cause you mentioned Stu McLaren. When he was on the show, he was dropping names and examples.

And when I was like, Hey, so how does somebody transition from an online course to a membership? And he’s like, Oh, that’s like Donna. So let me tell you about Donna. Her community is this and it’s this, and she did this and they should, this is this much money. And I was like, you can’t help, but. Go, okay, I need to listen to you because you’ve got it down, right?

So I know you do some of that, but like the more storytelling that you can do to relate it to the different obstacles and objections that your audience that you know they have, the better that will convert. So maybe I can go maybe get an initial reaction from you on that before I ask my next question.

Justin Moore: I accept that with open arms, man, because it’s so you’re so right. It’s so funny because like I have, I literally was just talking with my team. We have literally hundreds of testimonials, video testimonials, like really amazing ones. And I literally don’t share them anywhere. Like the only place that they’re on is basically the sales page for the course.

I don’t share them on social media. I don’t do that at all. I, I, I have this like. I don’t know. It’s not an aversion to it. It’s just like, I just, you know, my, my, my whole ethos is just like, ah, if people want to work with me or join the course, it’s fine. They’ll find it, you know? So I, I’m never like overt about it, but we have so many.

And so I was, we should like start posting these, like we should turn them into shorts. We should, in fact, I hired a journalist recently to interview some of our top, you know, clients. And we started making these like really in depth case studies into them. I got inspired by ConvertKit because they do these really cool, you know, stories.

And so I was like, I want to do that. And so we have four of them so far, but yeah, I haven’t really promoted them and they’re really awesome. And so you’re right. I need to do better at that. I need to improve my story bank. Like you mentioned with, with Stu I do have a lot of stories, but it’s like, yeah, I don’t know.

It’s a deficiency. You’re right. I need to do better at that. I don’t have an excuse. I need to do better there.

Pat Flynn: In the world of negotiation, there are so many interesting moments that could be pulled out. I’m, I’m remembering a lot of, I don’t follow this person, but I just happen to come across this content every once in a while and I’m intrigued.

Grant Cardone, he’s literally on the phone in his conference room and he’s negotiating some big deals with the person on the other end. And like, just listening in on those conversations is super fascinating. It’s just like, I can’t move to the next thing because I need to see how this thing finishes. So there might be some amazing email correspondences.

You know, you can leave names out and brands out, but just to show how the deal went down, how this person’s one single question doubled their sponsorship revenue. Here’s the conversation. Can you find the question that mattered most here? And it’s just like, Oh gosh, this is a learning as it’s happening in real time.

We are like, viewers watching the real world, right? It’s just like, wow, let’s see how this goes down. That’s an amazing opportunity that you have in the space that you’re in because negotiations happen all the time. So if we surface those, then they just become, you know, eye candy for viewers.

Justin Moore: Man, my mind is racing right now because I, I just, the thing you said a little bit ago around, it also made me think of, you were like, Oh, There’s gonna be certain things you try or do that fires you up and certain things that feel like a draw on your energy, right?

And the way, place my mind instantly went when you said that was like, dude, if we had like a more of a membership focus community, I would love to do more ongoing programming because like when I did a live cohort of my course, one of my favorite things is bringing in guest speakers from agencies and brands and creators who are doing cool things.

And like I, and people always say that’s like one of their highlights, but I don’t do that as much now because I have the on demand program. And so like, if we had more of a membership feel to the community, it would make way more sense to like have ongoing programming, right? Man, I just thought of that.

Like that, that excites me. Yeah, I’m getting fired up.

Pat Flynn: And this is the cool thing. When you bring two people in a room and you chat about one of those person’s things, that could be way out of context. Don’t take that out of context. By the way don’t clip that people when you just are with somebody else, talk and shop, incredible things happen, right?

And this is, like you said, it is a lonely thing out there. So there’s a, there’s a lot to this, right? If you’re trying to learn something or expand your knowledge, go out there, talk to people, join communities, have conversations. But at the same time, as a creator, you can become the person who creates those safe spaces for those interactions to happen, similar to what you’re doing.

With your people who are all talking shop who are going to swap ideas and it’s cool because it’s, it’s like you said earlier, it’s like you can learn the basics and the fundamentals. It’s like chess. You know how the pieces move, but every game is different because there’s a million different combinations, if not more of things that can happen, which is why you need a coach for chess, which is why you need Justin for sponsorships, which is why you might need insert name here for transformation that you want.

So I’m just really grateful again, that you’re open in that you are sharing these things in real time because people are seeing your growth and it’s like, we’re kind of watching like, okay, where are you going to go next? And it’s, it’s really cool to hear sort of the play by play.

Justin Moore: Dude, I appreciate that. How the heck do I find a quality mastermind? I was part of one a few years back for course creators, and it was great. I attribute a lot of my growth to that, to the things that I learned in that. Where did you find that one? Just Twitter. It was run by Andrew Barry and Marie Poulon and Robbie Crabtree.

And it was really great. I really got a lot out of it, but then I, I felt like I graduated out of it. It was like a, it was, I got the outcome that I was hoping. And so I was at kind of a different. level, right? I was like, ready to like for the next level essentially, right? And this is the, the dirty thing that I think people don’t talk about enough with like masterminds and groups and things like that is like, to some degree it’s like, you kind of want to know who’s in the room too, right?

Because what I found was like, there was this imperceptible moment where I, I shifted from learning to now I’m like teaching in the mastermind, right? And it was like, I don’t mind that, right? Like, I’m happy to do that. But it was like way more skewed on the teaching side. And I was like, I’m not like getting out of this.

Like, I want to like be the dumbest person again, like, you know, in the room. And so it’s been really tough for me to like, I just don’t know. It’s like, I’ve asked around. It’s like, is a peer mastermind good? Is a paid one good? Like, do you have any tips on like, how do I find like a a peer group of people who will like challenge me in this way and like more of a like an ongoing format where it’s like you meet up or there’s like events and like, I don’t know, I’ve explored some of these various options, but nothing has seemed like a good fit.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, I mean, there’s two kinds of groups that you want to think about one groups related to the next thing that you’re working on, which is going to be different than the sort of like long term. group of people who’s going to grow with you and you’re going to grow with them. This is sort of like topic specific.

So for example, since you’re in book mode, it could make sense to find other people and or join and perhaps even pay to get access to people who are literally in the same moment as you in time right now with books and such, you know, people like Jeff Goins and other people who bring people or seem to attract authors together in the business space who all are collectively helping each other out at the same time.

And then, you know, you launch a book and you’re kind of done with that and that’s fine. But that’s good because you got what you need. It’s just in time learning, but learning with other people. However, definitely there’s benefit to finding a group of people who are there and growing with you. And that is largely going to be based off of the relationships that you build based on the values that you share with each other.

And just like the vibe, honestly, and the only real way to make that happen is to find people in person and get together and try like let’s date around a little bit, you know I’ve been in five or six mastermind groups over time and I’ve landed on two that I’ve been in now for over a decade. And they weren’t the first ones I found, but they were ones that I found that I gelled with and, you know, a few members here and there have changed in and out, but I continue to get value from them because we are very much in the camp of we are here to help each and every other member live the best life possible.

And to be, and that partly means being brutally honest with each other too, because you don’t want to be in a group where you’re just getting like, yeah, you got this, you, you know, fire emojis everywhere. It’s like, bro. What the heck was that? Last week’s email was terrible. Are you okay? Like, what do you do?

What are you doing? Like, are you like you’re veering off path here? Like we got to get you back on. So the, the two groups I’m in one, I was invited to, so I was in a circle and I was eventually invited into this. I didn’t know it existed until somebody was like, Hey, you know, why don’t you try this out? And then I loved it.

The other one that I am in now, I started with a buddy. So it was just literally from scratch. So you don’t have to find one that exists. You can go and make one. And it just has to be maybe even one other person to start with. And then you can kind of slowly build it. And that will take time.

Unfortunately, it’s not going to be a, let me sign up and join the club kind of thing pretty often. It’s, it’s going to be, organic, it’s going to take time. It’s going to be really based on the vibe and the, just the, the gut feeling, really.

Justin Moore: Dang. That’s yeah. I, I figured that the, the hard way is the, is the real way.

And so I kind of knew what that was the answer. I was wishing there was a, there was an easier path, but I think that’s I guess that’s the way the, the, the worthwhile things are in life, right?

Pat Flynn: Yeah, for sure. And you know, the other thing I’ll say about that is, you know, the groups I’m in, they, comprised of people who are across all different industries.

In fact, one of the groups I was in had a member who’s no longer in the group, but he was with us for years. His name was Roderick and he was a sword swallower. That was his profession. He swallowed swords and he did hypnotism. He would get, you know, high school kids on stage during their graduation parties and make them look silly in front of everybody.

And he would perform and you’re like, okay, well, what benefit was that to you, Pat? Like, what was the benefit? And I would not be where I’m at with the kind of stuff I do on stage, if it wasn’t for him. How comfortable I am on stage, the performance aspect of it, how to draw a crowd, how to hold attention.

And if you can hold the attention of some high schoolers, then, you know, you could hold the attention of anybody, really. So I learned so much stagecraft from this person, as we were helping him with his business and expanding outward beyond just, like, you know, getting hired during one season of the year.

So, you know, cross industry, we were both better off.

Justin Moore: Dude, that’s so, that’s so useful because I think I tend to sometimes be kind of myopic about I just like want to find a group or other peers who are like kind of doing the same thing I’m doing because they, you know, if I talk about like funnels or email sequences or automations or blah, blah, blah, you know, personalization, whatever, like I want to like talk that, but it’s like, to your point, there’s so much you can learn, so much color that you can glean from people who are doing wildly different things to you. And I don’t think I appreciate that as often.

Pat Flynn: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I appreciate you coming on and treating this almost in a, in a mini coaching session versus just coming out to share.

Justin Moore: Therapy. It was therapy, dude. Therapy. Are you certified? I hope so.

Pat Flynn: No, I’m not.

Justin Moore: But it seemed like it. It was very good.

Pat Flynn: Thank you. What else, what is exciting you these days outside of business? I’m curious. A well rounded entrepreneur does not mean things are growing momentum in just business, but also in other parts of life.

What is getting you excited outside of business today?

Justin Moore: Dude, my kids are getting older and I can do awesome things with them now. My kids are six and nine and we went off roading with them on our last vacation. Like what kind of dude, like literally we went into a TV or like not a TV, like an enclosed buggy, you know, like off road thing for Cedar.

And when we were in Kauai, man, we, we took the kids off road and it was fricking amazing. I like for the longest time we were in this. period of our lives where like basically for the last 10 years where it was like they were like young and like, you know, anytime we want to do like an activity or an excursion and it’s always like not for kids younger than X or like not for kids who weigh less than blah, blah, blah.

Right. And so now that our youngest is six, it’s like, that’s, The cutoff for like a lot of cool things you can do, like zip lining and, you know, off roading and like cool activities when you travel. We love to travel as a family. So my wife and I were just talking about how it’s like a new chapter, you know, of like kind of doing an experience is new, experiencing new things as a family.

By the other token though, it also means that older kids being new and complex challenges with their lives and the people that they’re becoming and new challenges at school and in their social life and them having distinct personalities and identities outside of being our kids, you know? So it’s like, yeah, it’s such a beautiful life, man.

I feel, I feel really let me share one really vulnerable thing that I think it might be useful to other people. The other thing that I’m really excited about is being able to allow my wife to slow down in her career a bit more, because for a long time, my wife, April, she, the only way I know anything about sponsorships and brand deals is because the business that really, really, she started and built her YouTube channel, her social platforms and I, I started making content along the way, but it was really her and so she for the longest time has been kind of the, the figurehead of like that business of like people want to work with April, right? And then I, I’m kind of come along for the ride. And so it’s been a lot of pressure on her for a long time because of that, the deals that we would do, the business, it’s been a blessed life. I’m not complaining, of course, but it’s a lot of stress being a mom, being kind of the figurehead of that business.

And so having grown Creator Wizard to where it is now, it’s just been such a breath of fresh air to be able to, allow her, you know, to, to have this new kind of really robust revenue stream to say, Hey, you know, it’s, it’s okay to like, take your foot off the gas of this thing you’ve been doing for the last 15 years.

I don’t know why I’m sharing this, but it like just jumped to my mind of like something that has been such a blessing over the last year or so.

Pat Flynn: No, that is. That is huge. My wife is named April as well, you know, stay at home mom and she’s sacrificed so much and I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for her. And we have to realize that you know, and I really am grateful for the pandemic.

In fact, as terrible as it was and as challenging as it was, it definitely helped slow me down because she was always in full support of whatever I decided to do and for the longest time I was saying yes to way too many things and she was in full support of all of it. And I’m so grateful for that because when the pandemic hit, we had some pretty intense discussions about the future.

You know, am I going to continue to go back on the speaking circuit like I was? And it really made me reflect on, you know, not just the fact that I didn’t have to speak anymore, which was cool, but just what is important. What are we ultimately doing this for? And that it made more sense to stick around at home and, and be more present, especially as, and you had mentioned your kids, my kids are even older, 14 and 11 now.

And we’re on the opposite half of how much time we have until they’re out now. I mean, only four more summers with my son. So it really brought things back into perspective. And oftentimes it’s, you know, our other half, our other relationships that really help fulfill the other parts of our life. I know we get really excited about business and we start to, you know, lean into that, but we don’t want it to be at the expense of anything else.

So, I appreciate you sharing that and you know, your wife sounds amazing and your family and just appreciate you coming on to share your stories. And I’m sure this isn’t going to be the last time, but again, if anybody wanted to go back and listen to some of the tact tactful tact, tactfully, you know, I don’t even know how to say it.

The great episodes that that Justin brought on where we go into the walkthrough of how to do sponsorships, obviously you can listen to that episode, but if they wanted to get more help from you and directly from you and your team, where should they go, Justin?

Justin Moore: Yeah It’s the best way you can sign up the newsletter.

I send you paid sponsorships every single week why wouldn’t you want to sign up? But yeah, man, thanks for having me And I think at some point we got to get a we got to get the April’s together for a double date Maybe yeah, that’d be fun at some point. We got to make it happen

Pat Flynn: dude, I Appreciate you so much for coming on.

Congrats on everything. Looking forward to seeing which directions you take in the book. Obviously it’s any info about the book or can they find it if they subscribe to the newsletter and all that stuff?

Justin Moore: Yeah, it’s called Sponsor Magnet. So maybe you’re listening to this in the back catalog of SPI right now, and it’s already out.

And the subtitle is how to attract price and execute your dream sponsorships so you stop leaving thousands on the table. URL is Not, I don’t think it’s, it’s up yet, but that’ll be the URL if you’re listening to it. But yeah, really excited for that to come out and you know, have the impact I hope it does.

Pat Flynn: It will make a giant impact. Thank you, Justin. Appreciate it, man.

Justin Moore: Thanks again, dude.

Pat Flynn: All right. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Justin from And he definitely is a wizard. He also, you could just tell sometimes when you hear a person’s voice or you connect with somebody that they just are a genuine person who cares, who has a vibe of just positivity and wanting to help others.

I also love that he’s a family man. He’s not afraid to talk about how entrepreneurship has helped him get closer to his family. And, and I re I really resonate with that. He’s trying to spread that as well. And it’s something that I believe in too. So for whatever reason you’re doing what you’re doing, I know Justin can help you along the way.

So again, check them out Justin, thank you so much for your support, my man. I appreciate you.

And I look forward to serving all of you. With our next guest next week on the SPI podcast. And remember, we have our Friday episodes that come out as well. Typically featuring just me solo episodes, which I hope is okay.

A lot of you have been enjoying the deeper dives. We’ve been getting into with strategy and tactics lately on those Friday episodes. And I want to keep you up Hearing the feedback coming positive and constructive. And if you have some kind words to share, I’d love for you. If you wrote a review on Apple, we don’t ask very often.

So we’d love to see your kind words there as well. So cheers. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. I’ll see you in the next one. Peace.

Thank you so much for listening to the Smart Passive Income podcast at I’m your host, Pat Flynn. Sound editing by Duncan Brown. Our senior producer is David Grabowski, and our executive producer is Matt Gartland. The Smart Passive Income Podcast is a production of SPI Media, and a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network. Catch you next week!

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