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SPI 705: The Keys to Building a 6-Figure Niche Business in 2023-2024

Too often, creators focus on profit instead of the value they provide their audience. But this is the first step toward building a successful business: making sure your products actually work and proving it!

My returning guest, Mark Wills, is a perfect example of applying a serve-first mindset to entrepreneurship. He and his business partner Roman run Loan Signing System [affiliate link], the largest notary coaching business in the US. In episode 303, we heard how they used strategies from my book Will It Fly [Amazon affiliate link] to build their incredible six-figure business. (Listen in on that session to learn more!)

Mark’s enthusiasm is just as infectious in today’s inspiring, high-energy chat. We talk about why community and authenticity are vital in the age of AI, how to run a hands-on business that can scale, the importance of social proof and gathering effective testimonials, the 5+1 email marketing strategy, and more.

So how do you achieve massive success without compromising or losing sight of your desire to help others? Tune in for my conversation with Mark to find out!

Today’s Guest

Mark Wills

Mark Wills is one of the highest-producing notary loan signing agents in the country, the owner of a national loan signing service, a best-selling author, and the course instructor of Loan Signing System, the premier notary signing agent training to thousands of people coast to coast. His YouTube training videos have been viewed over 5 million times!​

Mark has done over 10,000 loan signings and hires thousands of notary signing agents every year to conduct loan signings. He has taken everything he has learned in the nearly 20 years of being a top-producing notary signing agent and created a step-by-step system that anyone can apply to make more money as a notary signing agent.

Learn more about Mark’s Loan Signing System [affiliate link]

You’ll Learn


SPI 705 The Keys to Building a 6-Figure Niche Business in 2023-2024

Mark Wills: Too many times I see course creators on the outside focus on the money and not the value. And they’re trying to launch these $1,000 launches. And like, well, how come I only sold two? Well, I’m like, dude, your course is a thousand bucks and you’ve helped one person.

And so you need to test and validate. Can my, information actually change your life? Can I actually get them to do what they want them to do? And if you can do that, then the referrals happen.

It’s like when you see a great movie, you’re like, dude, you gotta go see Avatar 2. It’s not because James Cameron paid you, it’s because it was that good. So you have to get your product to be that good where people just want to talk about it.

Pat Flynn: This is the stuff that we need to hear right now. If you are building a business, whether you’re a course creator or you’re involved with communities, you’re definitely going to want to listen in. And I know that’s a very, very big thing to say, but Mark Wills here, who was on the show back in episode 303, this was 700.

This was 700, seven years ago, 700 years ago would be wild. I haven’t figured out the time travel thing quite to that extent yet. But this episode is going to tell you exactly what you need to know today in order to grow a successful business. There’s very specific things that Mark and his business partner, Roman, are using in their business Loan Signing System.

Very, very niche what they’re teaching. And we do give you a little bit of background. You don’t have to listen to episode 303. You can if you want, but we’re going to give you a little bit of background as far as the origin story and where this started and how we scaled up from a $30,000 per month business back then, which already was very successful to essentially 10X-ing that and still have time and sanity around building this whole thing and making people feel special.

So definitely make sure to listen in. This is Mark Wills from Loan Signing System. Oh man, this is, I had a lot of fun on this one and you’ll feel the energy right away. I promise you. So sit tight, enjoy. We’ll connect right after.

Announcer: You’re listening to the Smart Passive Income Podcast, a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network, a show that’s all about working hard now, so you can sit back and reap the benefits later. And now your host, his favorite color growing up was orange, because it was the only color no one else picked in his class. Pat Flynn.

Pat Flynn: Mark, welcome back to the podcast, man. Thank you so much for being here today.

Mark Wills: Oh, you’re welcome. Thank you for having me, man. What’s going on, brother?

Pat Flynn: See, I love your energy. It’s the same as before back in episode 303. So we’re catching up after a very, very long time. And at the time I remember you had talked about a business that was making 30,000 a month and we’ll, we’ll get into where it’s at now, but why don’t you, for people who didn’t listen to that episode, tell us a little bit about who you are and how you and your partner created, whatever it is that you created.

Just give us a quick little background.

Mark Wills: Yeah. First off episode 300. What are we, what episode are you on now?

Pat Flynn: It’s going to be over 700 at this point.

Mark Wills: Oh, wow. I know it is crazy. It’s insane. You’re right. There’s been a long time, man. I congratulate you on all your success as well, brother. So I’m super happy to be jammed with you again.

Yeah. So I tell people in a nutshell, I’m the largest notary business coach in America. Most people look at me a little bit sideways. And so I always tell people, you know, there are 4,4 million notaries in America to put that in perspective, there’s only 3 million realtors. So everybody thinks everyone’s a realtor, and the truth is everyone’s a notary. And so I teach these notaries how to create successful businesses. Most people don’t realize a notary signing agent, which works for title companies, makes 75 to 200 for an appointment. It takes about an hour, no college degree needed, just some education. That’s where I come in.

I see you nod, you’re ready to shake your head. Cause it’s crazy. There’s so many notaries. In fact, we have so many SPI listeners from five years ago, making six figures a year from learning about this from your podcast. So you’ve changed lives in the notary community by having me on, you know, four or five years ago.

So it’s crazy.

Pat Flynn: I appreciate that. Well, that’s what we’re here to do is to amplify these messages and show people what’s possible. So go back to the beginning real quick, like how did you know that this is something that you could teach others or like, where, where did this sort of origin story even come in?

Mark Wills: Yeah, good question, man. So I was a successful notary. I guess I still am. I mean, so I’m a notary that specializes in the loan mortgage niche. And so I say that because that’s actually how me and you met, right? Me and you met where I was actually the notary at your mortgage signing fatefully five, six years ago.

And so point I’m trying to make that is I was a successful notary working for title companies. And so I always, all my buddies are like, man, how are you making six figures a year? And I’m like, dude, get your notary commission. I’ll show you the rest. And so I literally taught five, six, seven, my friends, how to do exactly what I was doing.

Like, it’s really not rocket science. You got to be a notary from your state. And then I can teach you how to go over mortgage loan documents. So I literally did that for six or seven of my buddies. Loan comes Roman, who is now my business partner, who was one of those buddies. He’s like, Hey dude, why are you teaching all our other friends, I don’t make money as a notary in this loan niche, why don’t you teach me? So the story goes, which is the truth, we jumped on FaceTime. This was about six and a half years ago, probably six months before me and you actually got on your podcast. And so he was in Northern California. I’m in Southern California.

So he’s like, Hey, let’s just jump on FaceTime and I can bang this out in a couple hours. So we get on FaceTime. I’m literally on the Mac, just like I am now, he’s on his Mac and I go through the process about two hours. And so teaching about six of our friends how to be a notary in the loan niche, usually at the end of the two hours, they go, Oh my God, thank you so much.

Roman’s reaction was a little bit different. Roman goes, so you just taught me how to do this over FaceTime. I’m like, yeah, dude, I got to go. My wife’s in the other room. He’s like, no, no, no, no. You just taught me how to do this over FaceTime and I’m still not putting it together. And he’s like, If you can teach me over FaceTime, why can’t you teach more people how to do this if you had an online course?

And I go, babe, can you hold on a few minutes? And so I go back to Roman, true story, I go, well, I’m, I’m a notary at some, I’m not a digital course creator. I’m not a digital marketer. And so I wasn’t putting it together. And he’s like, if I can get notaries in front of you, do you think you can do this again?

And I said, yes, and this is not just a plug, Pat. This is a truth. He read, Let It Fly, and through that, he talks about testing. I didn’t know this. And I think I talked about this in the first one. And you talk about how you kind of test your theories. And so what we did is he did, I don’t want to take any credit for it.

He got on there, created a website. We drove no traffic to it. It was called And he just realized notaries are probably typing in the word money and typing in the word notary start driving traffic to it. We literally had five people on a free webinar. I taught them exactly what I taught my other friends.

And then they’re like, Oh my gosh, Mark, thank you. I say, cool. I don’t have any, I don’t have any testimonials yet. All I’m doing is just teaching people over webinars and he would run free traffic via Facebook ads or through just the webpage It’s now But again, we’d started with five people.

And then the next webinar was 10. The next number was 30. The next webinar was 50. And the, by the time we got to 50, we then, Oh, well, let’s see if we can sell something to these 50. The first ones were just free. We was just, can I teach what I know to somebody without being in front of them? And so it literally was just kind of a process up using a lot of your philosophies from Let It Fly.

And here we are seven years later, man, we have 70,000 students over six years, as I speak to you today, we have 11,000 community, a subscriber community of over 11,000 notaries, of students who literally make seven figures a year in this business, all from a $500 course. So the impact we’ve made has been pretty substantial in the past six years, man.

I’m pretty stoked on that.

Pat Flynn: Congratulations, man. That is like absolutely wicked. Do you, it’s an incredible story and it’s, and it’s one that, you know, it’s not anything super crazy or fancy that you’re helping people with, but you are helping people with their career, make more money and you’re doing it in a legit way based on experiences that you’ve had.

I love how Roman came into play and he saw that opportunity when, when you didn’t. And so what’s your guys’s relationship like? Like, how does, like, currently he’s still working with you, right? And what, what are the sort of roles that you each play?

Mark Wills: Yeah, so he’s still my business partner. We’re 50 50 from day one.

And what I always like to say is I’m kind of the visionary. He’s the executor, right? I’m the guy who has, you know, these crazy ideas and Romans, the one who, who’s the genius behind the funnels and like, well, that’s a great idea, Mark, but I’m not sure if we can actually execute that. And so we have a great business partner relationship because I’m kind of the one with all these ideas and he’s like, well, Mark, and he executes it.

Well, this is what the funnel should look like. Well, that’s a great idea, but how are we going to drive traffic to it? Okay. That’s a great drive for the community, but how do we scale this? Because we have 11, 000 people because sometimes I have all these ideas on how to support the community better. He’s like, great.

That’d be sweet if we had 40 people in our community. We have 11, 000 and so it’s really, he’s really the executor on how to issue the support out to me or even some of our bigger ideas on how to help the general population because now we’re really in the money, money making niche, right? So we go up against some of the other how to make money people.

So we’re kind of grown out of just the notary niche and now we’re helping Uber drivers, single mom, and so we can get into talks if you want about some of our funnels, but now our funnels, it started within just speaking to notaries and now we speak to Uber drivers, Lyft drivers, you know, drop shippers, anybody looking for part time income.

And so now our finals, mostly because of Roman have gone out of just the notary niche and into just the, you’re looking to make money, we buy those keywords, we run Facebook ads and we try to help as many people as we can. Interesting,

Pat Flynn: but you’re still driving them to the loan signing system, right? A hundred percent.

But the carrot isn’t, Hey, be a notary. The carrot is, Hey, Uber driver, you might want some extra money. Come in and we’ll show you how to do that. And then you reveal the Loan Signing System and how it works. And then of course it attracts people to come in and students, right?

Mark Wills: Couldn’t have said it better.

It’s exactly what we do.

Pat Flynn: Okay, man. That’s, that’s amazing. And so 11, 000 students or no 70, 000 students, a community of 11, 000. Now that’s right. What is the community aspect of this? Right? You mentioned there, there’s an online course that people can get, but what is the community component? What is that there for?

What is it doing?

Mark Wills: Yeah. I mean, the funny part is I’ve learned over the past six years is, people want community more than anything else. And I always tell people the best part of the Loan Signing System is not me. It is our community. And so from day one, I’ve tried to lead people in a way of positivity. I like people in the way of that, you know, collaboration is the new currency.

We can all be successful. You know, before I really became a prominent notary business coach, notaries are kind of in silos like, Oh, don’t talk to me. I’m afraid to give you my secrets. Before they realize if we can collaborate, we can all win. And so I tell all my students as a rising tide lifts all ships.

And so the community really is notaries helping notaries. It’s single moms helping single moms because everyone has these different stories and backgrounds. And so I put them together in a community and then we end up kind of making these micro communities, whether it’s based on state location or your backgrounds, you know, being single moms or whatnot.

And so it’s really community more than anything else. And as you can imagine, you know, seven years later, I get, I get a lot of people asking me how, how did you build what we’ve built? And so I actually say two things. I say, the first thing is whatever you’re selling has to work. Like you can’t, if you have not tested, can you teach someone else to do whatever it’s in your brain or whatever you claim it to do, then you’re, you’re dead in the water.

But the number two thing I tell people is you got to build a community around whatever you’re doing. Cause especially with the advent of ChatGPT community is more important than anything else, in my opinion, in my opinion, as course creators go forward and this new kind of, you know, AI world, you know, information’s commoditized.

You can go on YouTube now and learn how to be a notary public loan signing agent, but it’s the community support that really makes someone go from A to B, you know, from being a brand new notary to actually making money. And so the way I’ve built what I’ve built is by building a community. Now I always tell people I’m just one person of 11, 000.

It’s them who make it special. I’m just honored to be part of the small journey, but yeah, it’s community support cohorts, letting everybody feel heard, giving a safe place to be like, you know what today stunk. I didn’t get any realtors in my belt. I didn’t get any mortgage officers in my belt while I had to travel two hours from an appointment that paid 50.

And so giving some place where people can actually vent frustrations, they don’t have to, they can be real. They don’t have to, you know, live the Instagram life where everything’s perfect. And so if you give people a place like that, a safe place, I think the course actually builds itself.

Pat Flynn: Dude, you’re speak in my language. Like this is what I’m doing in the Pokemon space right now. You know, people come in the common languages or the cards, just like for you, the common languages, you know, generating an income and the long thing and stuff. But when you come together, then the conversations aren’t even about that. They’re about the families.

They’re about the problems. They’re about the, the wins and just everybody celebrating each other, which is really cool. And you’re doing this with loans. Like it, like on the surface, it’s like, how could you even create a community about that stuff? And the fact is the community isn’t even about that, that’s the thing that’s brought those people together as sort of the common language to start a conversation with, and then you’ve just done an amazing job of fostering that, which is, which is wild.

So how are you hosting your community? Where technically? Is that hosted in like what’s the day to day they’re like?

Mark Wills: Yeah, so we mainly host it on Facebook, in a Facebook group. So you come in through authentic paid course. And then once you get through authentic paid course, then the actual community is Facebook.

We actually have now joined Circle. Nice. We are one of the most active communities on Circle. In fact, community managers want us to start teaching how we make our group so engagement at Circle, but so we use Circle and Facebook, Facebook groups. And then through those we’ll hold Zooms. And so if we do a live training where I have like 500, 000, 2000 people on it, we’ll do Zooms to really get the live training out to them.

But the communication occurs in the Facebook group or in Circle itself, Circle app.

Pat Flynn: Yeah. Circle’s great. We use that as well. I mean, as you might know, SPI has changed its business model from courses to specifically community. We have our All Access Pass. And yes, they can still get access to the courses, but it’s the people who connect with each other as they’re going through those courses together that really make it special and what keeps people on for longer and keeps them coming back, which is great.

And I would imagine that with the communities that you’re building, their friends, their families are asking about it, right? It almost kind of starts to promote itself from within. How are you fostering sharing, how are you, how are you encouraging those members of yours to bring new people in? If at all, is there like a referral situation?

Like, how does that work on your end?

Mark Wills: Yeah. So we do have affiliate program. However, that we actually, the funny part is affiliate programs very rarely used by our community. And people just refer because the product works. I get asked this all the time. I’ll say it again, Mark, how did you build what you’ve built?

And it’s because my product actually works. If the product actually works, then you’re going to get referrals. The problem with, if you don’t, if your product doesn’t work in my opinion, and I’m just one course creator, it’s very tough to scale the business just on Google ads or paid traffic because as pay traffic increasingly becomes more expensive, the way you offset your Google ad costs is by getting free referrals.

And I think a lot of course creators don’t really put that together. It’s like, wow, it’s 15 pay per click. Well, actually it’s not. If you had three people are for you for free. And so you can offset your paid advertisement or paid costs by having referrals. The only way you can get referrals of your product works.

And so before we, our course started at $15. Today, our most expensive course, our biggest investment is $800. But too many times I see course creators on the outside focus on the money and not the value. And they’re trying to launch these $1,000 launches and like, well, how come I only sold two? Well, I’m like, dude, your course is a thousand bucks and you’ve helped one person.

And so you need to test and validate. Can my, my information actually change your life? Can I actually get them to do what they want them to do? And if you can do that, then the referrals happen. So yes, we have an affiliate program, but oddly enough, most of our students don’t use it. It’s like when you see a great movie, you’re like, dude, you gotta go see Avatar 2.

It’s not because James Cameron paid you because it was that good. So you have to get your product to be that good where people just want to talk about it. And I’ve spent years trying to get my course perfect and I’ll take feedback. I’m I’ve ego-less feedback. Some students like you need a better table of contents. Done.

Well, you know, you need better zoom meetings. Done. So I’m really into feedback loops and it’s a very egoless way of building this because I really serve the community. And from day one, me and Roman have always been about, you know, helping the notary actually make money, not the way we think they should, but the way they tell us they should.

And I think too many times. A lot of course creators really have this ego driven business versus a heartfelt business where it’s like you really are trying to help somebody. And that’s all I did day one. And you know, to kind of wrap up this part of the conversation is your community can feel if you’re money driven or heartfelt driven.

And if you’re heartfelt driven, then the referrals come for free and then your community grows. And so from day one, I did all, I’ve just thought that being a notary is the best kept secret in America for income opportunity. Everybody wants to be everything but a notary and it’s like, no, they don’t just charge $5 a stamp.

They’re making $200 bucks in an hour. I sat with you literally Pat Flynn for 45 minutes and I made $200 bucks. And it’s really getting the word out that this is really the best kept secret and people can tell you if it’s just you’re trying to sell a thousand dollar course if you’re really trying to help. And so if you can just really learn to be a heartfelt business and not a money driven business, the business grows itself.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, I’m into that for sure. And I know that you were heartfelt right from the beginning and now seven years later, how do you keep that? I know a lot of creators who start off heartfelt. Then they start making money and then they lose touch with their community. They lose touch with their people. It seems like you’ve gone deeper.

What what’s kept you in the game with actually staying heartfelt across the way.

Mark Wills: Well, the technical way is I still stay involved. It was never this moment of, Oh, once I get so big, I’m going to have other coaches. I still make sure that I jump in there and I give my trainings. I still make sure I’m the only one who has access to the Facebook group.

It is literally me responding. If someone’s having a bad day, it’s me responding like, what can we do to make today better? And so seven years later, I’m the only person we now have, we’re very blessed with a team of 10. So we have 10 employees plus me and Roman. Enjoy. They’re team members, but none of them are allowed to be in the Facebook group.

That’s me because I authentically want to make sure everybody is, is heard by me. And so that’s the technical way. But the real reason is because I actually care. Like I know what it feels like to have no help, no support, you know, not to get into my background, but I have traumas, right. And so, you know, it’s really knowing what it feels like to be alone and having no support.

I’m a, I’m a foster child myself. And so I really know what that feels like. It’s a part of my mission in life is to make sure no one feels alone. And so, because of that, you know, I’m responding to Facebook messages at 10 o’clock at night, even today, seven years later, I believe my students and community feel that.

And that’s why they’re so cool with referring people. And it’s not about the money. You know, when I first came to, you know, we had, you know, I think 400 students now we’re up to, you know, 400 members in our group. Now we’re 11, 000, the 11, 000, like I did the 400. I’m still in. I still care. I still cry with them.

I still celebrate with them. And that’s the answer.

Pat Flynn: How do you manage your time and schedule? Because as you grow in skill, it does become harder to give that time to everybody. So what, how have you been able to do that?

Mark Wills: Well, like I said, we have a team of 10 now, very blessed with some of the best social media director of the best social media director in the world. And so my point is i’ve gotten a lot of people to help me time block my day and do a lot of the things I used to do So I used to be the editor and content creator. Now I’m just a content creator. And so, you know, we have a hundred thousand followers on instagram and you know, I just shoot the content she creates it. So my time now was more valuable than ever but I use it where it moves the most needle. And I think that’s another problem with early entrepreneurs is they don’t really learn how to take things off their plate and only focus on the things that move the needle. And what moves the needle most of my community is me helping them build a business and I don’t lose sight of that. Like I know if somebody gave me two, my, our lowest entry points to $2.97 and it doesn’t matter if you gave $2.97 or $800 it’s, I want to make sure I’m helping you build the business the best I can. We still have, when you come in, this might help some course creators out there, when you come in, I have a welcome webinar. It’s still with me. Like it doesn’t matter if you spent 20, you bought it, you got a coupon and it was 27. Are you still going to team me, I want everyone to know that you have access to me. So I do a new student webinar. It’s what we call it. So when you come in within a week, I get, you know, tons of people on that new students live.

Pat Flynn: It’s not pre recorded. It’s it’s live?

Mark Wills: It’s live. It’s live with me, just like we’re doing right now, but I time block for that, right? So that’s once a week. And then at the end of the course, there’s another webinar with me, not pre recorded live because honestly, that’s two hours of my week. It’s not too much to give up.

It’s the impact that I’m chasing. I know if I did it pre recorded or if I had, you know, someone else do it for me, I wouldn’t make the impact. And the reason I got into the business seven years ago is I just wanted to help people. And that doesn’t change just because we happen to be bigger. So I do an early touch point in the beginning.

When they first come in, then after they finished the course, they get another webinar with me. These are free. These are included, not upsells. And so that’s the way everyone really knows when they come into my community, oh, I actually get to talk to Mark a hundred percent, man. And I call you dude, nice cheer.

And I clap. I’m like, you’re just, I’m just, I’m just me. And so they get touch points early and often, and then I’ll do mass trainings, you know, with, you know, you know, now we have, you know, sold out national conferences. We have offline events as well. But yes, they still get touch points and that’s, and I think that’s a lot of people get into online courses so they can be hands off.

I think really, if you get create an online course and be hands on is where the real impact comes. And like I teach my, my students is if you chase the relationships, the money follows. And I’ve been very blessed with a big organization.

Pat Flynn: Beautiful. I’d love to know what’s working for you guys today. And maybe you could tap into Roman a little bit in kind of the funnels, because I’d love to know how you’re bringing new people in.

Yes, you have a product that works, which is A game, most important thing, and that will bring people in through referrals. But what, what are you doing to amplify that? What are you doing to create systems?

Mark Wills: Cool. So the main thing we do is social proof. I don’t, I don’t think that’s a, like, you know, the most profound statement, but we plaster social proof everywhere.

Again, number one reason why your course has to work. And so once someone makes their first dollar, boom, we ask them for a testimonial, once someone makes a thousand, boom, testimonial. We give swag in exchange for testimonials, right? These are all loan sites. So that’s cool. We ask, you know, in exchange of value for a testimonial.

So to answer your question is, you know, the biggest thing we do is, is paid advertises through pay social proof, social proof, social proof. So the product works, I know it does. And we’re going to show from people all walks in life. Single moms, single dads, dual income, you know, White, Mexican, black, Asian, Indian.

It doesn’t matter. We show social proof of all walks of life because our product helps all walks of life. And so to answer your top question, it’s social proof and we will put tons of money behind social proof. Now we have a lot of things like quiz funnels. We also do massive content. So the biggest part of my job is producing content.

So we’re on every platform, Tik Tok LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. We go all in on YouTube. And so then a lot of our paid traffic actually is retargeting. So once we get, you know, a lot of people are Googling, you know, how to make money. We’re putting our paid traffic up there. You know, they may not thought of notaries, you know, they watch a notary video, then boom, they go to a landing page, boom, they’re cookie right through pixel.

Then we follow them around and then we retarget them with social proof. So they come through the top of the funnel, either through a lot of searches, organic searches. We have tons and tons of contact of the team of six minor Romans, 10, excuse me, four just dedicated to content. To show you how much resources we put behind content.

And then we run paid traffic towards the content on YouTube. Most of our paid traffic is actually not top of the funnel. It’s usually retargeting. Now we will do top of the funnel ads to people within our niche. If you’re, if you are a notary interest, we’ll do a top of the funnel, but for like a Uber drivers Lyft drivers, not a ton of that, but most people are Googling how to make money and then our ads pop up organically or through paid traffic. So it’s a lot of just social proof and a lot of top of top of the funnel content. And so what do I mean by content? It’s probably a second follow up question is we just show how notaries are making money.

So it’s a lot of how to not what’s inside of what to do, not how to do, right? So it’s, it’s what to do is this, how to do it is in the course. Right. It’s in the community. So we’re doing a ton of what to do content. I don’t know if that helps anybody, but if you just put it, because a lot of people are afraid of gatekeeping.

They’re afraid of giving too much information out. You’re going to do a ton of information on what to do all day. I’m a realtor. I’m whatever. There’s what to do. You can, you can pump out a ton of content on what to do. I do give a lot of the, how to do away cause I believe once they realize I can teach them how to do it, then they’ll become part of the community. I believe in giving value before ask for money. But some people are really paranoid about giving away too much information. We don’t belong we don’t adhere to that principle personally with LSS. But nonetheless those are kind of how we’re doing top of the funnel. We do quiz funnels, you know, if you kind of happen to organically land on our page, we’ll do a giveaway in exchange for an email. So if you go to our website right now, we’ll give you a nine success step checklist. Meaning you could be a notary signing agent without my help.

So we try to give really good things away in exchange for an email. And then I would say this a better question for Roman, 40 to 50% of our business, our purchases come through our email drip. We have about a 45 to 50 initial email drip we put on people. And essentially what that is, is what to do with some, how to do in it.

And so big email camp, I mean, email market is what I really tell people we are.

Pat Flynn: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, for sure. And I would imagine there’s a lot of social proof in there in those emails as well, just to kind of reinforce when you mentioned social proof earlier, what does that look like? Is that capturing videos?

Is that just stuff on a sales page? Like what is social proof exactly? And, and if we were to see it, what would it look like?

Mark Wills: Yeah. Video testimonials of their success. And so I’m in the money making niche, right? A lot of my students actually make money so they should be holding up checks of the money so people realize it’s not fake.

Right? So because they get paid from title company. So our niche is kind of cool because there’s actual physical proof you can show on the video proof. I’m making money. It’s not just somebody like, Hey, I made 40 today. It’s like. One check to check. And so we asked them to show the money that they’re making, if they’re making money, or we asked them just to talk about the transformation, the course gave them.

So it’s video testimonials. We do written testimonials, but needless to say, video is the best. In our niche we’re very blessed that you can show some physical proof inside the video testimonials. So they don’t look like, you know, fake video testimonials. So, yeah. And we asked for video testimonials. I don’t know if this helps anybody out there all along the process.

So it’s not when they just make money. Cause that could be month number four in my community, but month number one, they finished the course. So why am I not getting a video testimonial of how good the course was? So I think sometimes people overthink what they need to get for social proof. Sometimes it’s like, dude, Mark’s course was amazing.

He’s full of energy. It taught me everything I needed to do. I can’t wait to make money. Some people feel like the video testimonial comes after them making money. And it’s like, no, because some people’s objections are, you know, what is it like being in the course? Is he boring? Is he not boring? Do you feel empowered?

And so we get video testimonials all along the journey, not just at the end. I like that.

Pat Flynn: That’s super smart. How do you counter the objection of, Oh, Mark, you’re just helping people make money. This is a scam. Like that’s going to be an immediate story people tell themselves when they laying on the sales page or see one of these ads or even, even just like the idea of a person showing a check for some people will be like, Oh, this is, this looks scummy.

How do you tell the story around that to help people understand that this stuff is real?

Mark Wills: Yeah. So it’s a great question. So, I actually got this idea from traffic and convergence about five years ago. So I used to go to track conversions in the very beginning. I still do.

Pat Flynn: It’s an event for everybody who doesn’t know and seeing it.

Mark Wills: Yeah. Yeah. And, and Pat speaks at it regularly, I believe. And so someone stood on stage and said, you should share more stories. And so for me, that kind of hit this like year two and for me, that kind of hit hard. I’m like, wow, I just need to do this, what me and you are doing right now. So I bring all my students who tell the story.

So I have about a hundred stories that I’ve told in the past six years. And so we talk about what didn’t work. We talk about how it took 90 days. We talk about how it’s not a get rich quick scheme. So through the stories. Is how I overcome the objections because a lot of people say, is this a get rich quick scheme?

No. In fact, let me serve you a video of someone where it took 60 days to get a first check. And so through the stories and sound bites, we can overcome the objections. We know people are thinking, oh, this is a get rich quick scheme. So we’ll serve you in a retargeting ad. I am specifically telling you this is not a get rich quick scheme.

By the way, it’s not me, it’s a story of somebody who’s doing it in Tennessee and Florida and Wyoming. And so through stories, I mixed in the objections I’ve gotten over the years and telling the story and I’m very transparent. The moneymaking niche is very hard because it’s so scammy. So I lead with, this is a real business, it’s going to take you 30, 60, 90 days to get off the ground.

I lead with, you know, your first appointments, you might be making 12 an hour, but you can’t get to 150 an hour until you work through it. And so through the transparencies, it’s worked for my niche. And so I just, I’m very transparent. I’m like, No, you’re not gonna get rich tomorrow. I literally say that.

And so I could overcome the objections by just being very up for it. Like, no, like this student, it took six months from them to make 10,000 in a month. This was not month number one. And so through stories, I bring out the objections. I get real people talk about their trials and difficulties and then their successes.

Like if I didn’t stick it out for 90 days, my life wouldn’t have changed. And so I’m telling stories and overcoming the objections by mentioning the objection upfront.

Pat Flynn: Yeah. Just hit it straight on or else the person’s going to make up their own story about that thing. So I love that. And as far as like these stories that you are telling, are these people you invite on to the YouTube channel or where else are they being shared?

Mark Wills: Good question. So I actually do a zoom. I actually know that I’ve heard of Squadcast. Maybe we’ll start using Squadcast, but we still want to one zoom is all we do. And then I have a list of four questions are all templated. And through that comes natural conversation. Now I’ve been sharing these stories for about five years.

The first, you know, six months was really choppy and then you just got to get better with reps. Right? And so we just. We record it and then I edit it and then I put it out in the universe. We have a newsletter. So if you enter our email drip, you get a newsletter and the newsletter, it shows students wins.

And so people were dripping on people. Students wins. We’re highlighting the different backgrounds they come from, you know, single mom, single dad, just got laid off, just got divorced to really make people feel like they’re not alone. Like, Oh, I can do it too. And so we record it. And then we kind of put it in our machine, quote unquote, it’s literally a machine.

It starts with putting our YouTube channel, then it goes in our email drip. Then we segment pieces out that we can retarget with like, Ooh, that was a good 45 seconds, and then we’ll start putting it out into our paid paid traffic.

Pat Flynn: So great, dude, Mark, we could talk forever about this.

Mark Wills: I was just saying, if people rewind this, they’ll get the full playbook, you know?

Pat Flynn: They, it’s, it’s great. So a couple of things, if a person is interested now in the system that, you know, a person might be, what are those people who could potentially use some additional income, where should they go to check out the system? And even if you’re not interested in that, at least check out the sales page, see how he’s telling the story and get involved with how you’re doing what you’re doing because it’s obviously working.

So where should they go?

Mark Wills: Yeah, go to That’s not plural system, not systems. So And to your point, Pat, I mean, here’s what me and Roman still do. We will enter other people’s email drips just to see what they’re doing. And so I think it’s a very sound business technique to find other people’s funnels and be like, Oh, I can take something from that, right. We believe in something called RDI. Rip, duplicate, improve. And so we will literally join, I just joined Ted McGrath’s. He has one and his email drips are insane. I’m guessing you know, Ted McGrath is. And so he literally sends out like three emails a day. We’re Roman and I are very sensitive. We’re like every three days.

And so it’s really cool to get another POV is my point. And so, yes, I would encourage anybody, any of your listeners to come on my, my funnel, see what we’re doing. See how it works, you know, see how non salesy our emails are. Right. We’re very, just educate first. So we actually believe in the five plus one system, which means five emails of value and then one sales email.

And so what we do is really let people know you can be a notary public loan signing agent without ever giving us a dime. And then on the six one, we’re like, look, if this seems a little bit overwhelming, we have a course for that. But if you don’t want to pay us a dime, cool. We just giving you basically the free tools on how to do it.

And so we believe in the five plus one system and that’s actually Roman, not me who developed that. I think if people should go to our landing page, should look at our quiz funnel, should look at our offer. Maybe you’ll see how amazing being a notary public loan signing agent is, but even if not, like I do with Ted, you know, and I could do with, you know, with even with you, I, I, we, our names are in 18 different email drips cause we’re trying to learn from people better than us because, you know, we don’t think we’re the smartest person in the room.

We’re always trying to learn from people better. So that’s kind of our philosophy.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, man. But I mean, you have obviously picked up so much info since the last time you were on the show and it’s scaled and have amplified so well. I knew this was about for success and just to see where you guys are at now is just I’m very proud of you and it’s just thank you so much for coming on Mark and shout out to Roman as well.

If you could leave everybody listening to this who’s now inspired to see how they can take what they have, the knowledge that they have and put it out there in the world in the same way. What one or two pieces of advice would you offer them?

Mark Wills: My, my first piece of advice is validate, validate, validate.

I’m going to give you a very technical one, you know, validate your product works and, and get the feedback loop. I think a lot of course creators go out with a thousand dollar product. I literally meet them almost every day. And I’m like, how many people have you changed? You’re like, well, nobody. And I’m like, well, start from the basics.

Our course was free. Then went to 15, then went to 97, then went to 147. Then we had a multiple product offer after 147. And then it went from 97, 199 to 299. And so each part of the way, just keep validating. But the first thing that I recommend anybody is that I’d go to a personal trainer and I learned to give him this advice last week.

I said he wants to start teaching like 24 hour fitness, personal trainers, how to go private. And this is the exact advice I gave him. I didn’t give anybody listening. I said, start with one trainer. And if you can help one trainer, then go to two trainers. You can help two trainers go to three trainers. So that is my very technical answer.

If you’re inspired, you’re like, I want to build a community. I want to build a course, don’t try to help everybody try to help one person. Then try to help two people. Then try to help three people. Here’s my esoteric answer, is you have to serve from the heart. Too many people this day and age have information. Information it’s an overload. You can go on YouTube and learn anything. People don’t buy information anymore. They buy you. They buy a leader, they buy a community. And that starts and ends with do they really feel like you’re in it for them? And so the moment you want to start an online course to make money, I actually tell you to reevaluate.

You start an online course because you want to help a human. And when you can really get your message about helping someone else, then the money comes. It’s not the other way around. I meet too many people who want to do a 5, 000 product. And it’s obvious you’re in it for the money, man. It’s super obvious.

Well, mark, I have 45 years of experience. Okay. Then start with one person for free and try to change their life. And then multiply that to 2, 5, 10, 15. When you’ve helped a thousand people. Now I’m going to get some feedback. I’m going to get pushback because I get it all the time. I’m like, you’re just not on a high ticket sales.

But I tell people, if my advice is, you know, you’re asking for my advice. My advice is lead with the heart. I mean, Pat, you’re, you’re a prime example of that, bro. You’ve done 700 episodes of just trying to bring value and you’re uber successful, I believe is because you’ve always done it from your heart and you’ve just wanted to give value and you’ve always wanted to help.

And I believe that’s why your community loves you. And I think if more people operated from the heart, I think there would be more successful online course creators. I think the failure rate of all my course creators it’s because everyone’s chasing the money and not chasing the impact or chasing the value.

And so it’s okay to work for free. I didn’t make a dollar for probably 18 months, 12 months. Roman was working full time. I was still a notary and I wasn’t making a buck and he was making the money and I just, because I just wanted to help and you know, back to one of your early statements earlier is why do you think community is built?

Because I think they really feel I care because I do. It’s not about money. My course could be a 5,000 course. I have students who make a million dollars in revenue from a 500 course, but I don’t do it because it’s not about the money. I know them and it’s not because I don’t like money. I just know the money will come if I serve.

That’s the bigger advice. And so if you really learn to serve, not chase the dollar, the dollar will always come. And that’s what I teach my students when they’re trying to build notary public loan mark. I’m trying to charge 250. I’m like, just start with 50 and let it build the 250. Serve from your heart.

I think, I think in this day and age. With especially ChatGPT information’s commoditized. It’s going to be so much harder for a course instructor to do it. If you don’t really have a leadership servant type of philosophy, and I could be off on that, bro, but I think you’re a great example of that to your community.

I know you’ve inspired me over the years and let me publicly thank you too. You know, I was telling Jess, like, you know, I give you a ton of credit. I slammed back in your room after the signing. I’m like, Hey, I’m starting a course. There’s what I want to do. And you were generous with your time. You met me and Roman for coffee.

And so again, you embody what I just talked about. Someone who’s serving is trying to help and trying to be. So thank you, man. I give you, every time I see you, I literally say the same thing. I tell you, thank you. I tell you that I really feel you have helped with our growth, whether it’s Will It Fly the book that Roman read.

Or whether it’s you just chat with me, dude. So we are very successful, but I’d argue it’s you have a very big part of that. So thank you, brother.

Pat Flynn: I appreciate you. And many people are successful because of you and hopefully people listening to this episode will get inspired and take that desire to succeed in the way that leads from with the heart first.

I think that’s a beautiful message to finish off with. So Mark, thank you so much. Appreciate you. LoanSigningSystem.Com. Go check it out. Go subscribe. And Mark, we’ll have to not wait another 400 episodes till we chat again. Okay.

Mark Wills: I’m in brother. Let’s go.

Pat Flynn: All right. Thanks brother.

All right, I hope you enjoy that episode with Mark Wills.

Again, Mark, thank you so much for coming on, bringing the energy, bringing the heat, and providing us with exactly what we all need to hear or actually be reminded of for succeeding in this day and age. I mean, we’re at the approaching the end of 2023, starting 2024. A lot of us are right in the middle of building something or want to build something very soon.

This is a perfect way to approach it. Heart led approach, but also being very smart and systematic with the things. And I love what you said about validation. If you’re not sure if it works yet, go find out if that’s true. You’ve heard me talk about on Friday episodes before the one person, one result sort of approach.

And this is exactly that. This is how to do it today. And I hope that you’ll take this forward and do something with it. So if you want to check out Loan Signing System, we actually do have an affiliate link if you want to go through it. So if you go to

If you do want to give a little credit, if you end up going through that program, we’ve had a number of people since episode 303 actually go through that program and enjoy it. But Mark wanted to give that to us just in case to pay us back for any referrals. And that’s not a huge deal, but yeah,, if you want to check that out. And you can even just join their funnel and see what it’s like, because they got some really, really great copy. And Mark’s always bringing really good stuff here, just like he did today. So thank you so much, Mark.

Thank you for listening all the way through. I appreciate you and make sure to check out the show notes. If you want the links to all this stuff, Again, Thank you so much. I appreciate you and keep leading from the heart. That’s it. Peace out.

Thank you so much for listening to the Smart Passive Income podcast at I’m your host, Pat Flynn. Sound editing by Duncan Brown. Our senior producer is David Grabowski, and our executive producer is Matt Gartland. The Smart Passive Income Podcast is a production of SPI Media, and a proud member of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network. Catch you next week!

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