SPI 922: Lessons Learned Running a Community Since 1996 with Paul Gowder

SPI 922: Lessons Learned Running a Community Since 1996 with Paul Gowder

Paul Gowder: Our last powwow live stream, we had 122 countries tune in. They usually start around 11 a. m. in the morning. And we’ll go, until three in the morning. So we’re talking about 12 to 16 hours of streaming a day. After we get back, we’ll take we’ll all of the little clips, and then we’ll put those up as individual YouTube videos.

We feel like Facebook is where we go to have new people discover us. With 1.7 million followers we were getting anywhere from a 100 to 150 million views a month. Which is just crazy, right? And so we are really focused on, we’re posting more on Facebook. I mean, 15, 20 times a day of content, texts, posts, videos, links, everything, just because the organic reach is there.

And every conference I’ve gone to in the last like six months, I’m telling everybody, it’s like, are you posting on Facebook? And I’m like, once or twice a month. You got to post. You got to post more.

Pat Flynn: Fun fact, it is the 30 year anniversary of Pokemon this year in 2026. However, there’s also another community that is celebrating their 30th year anniversary. And I’m speaking with the founder today. This is a community that you might not know about, but is huge. And it’s thriving, especially in the online and live streaming space.

And we’re talking with the founder today, Paul Gowder, to talk about how he got started with this, what it’s about, obviously, but also what he’s doing that’s working today and how he’s responded to some of the more recent changes in Google and organic traffic and what is working, especially on Facebook that you are not going to want to miss.

It’s a small window of opportunity that might be still available to you, so we’re going to talk about that and so much more today with Paul Gowder, founder of powwows.com, and we get into the strategies today, so here we go.

Paul, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being here.

Paul Gowder: Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me.

Pat Flynn: I’m so excited because you have developed one of the most amazing communities I’ve done some research on in a while. And it’s amazing because I know you teach email marketing. You teach a lot of the stuff about live streaming that you’ve done, but tell me about this community that you’ve built. How did you get started with it?

What is it about? And how big is it?

Paul Gowder: I started way back 1996 is when I really started playing around with this. It was never meant to be a business. It was literally, I was in grad school and I was just playing with HTML. I mean, I know you, you like to tinker with stuff online too. And that’s what it was.

It was just, I was building HTML pages. The first page I built was about vintage Star Wars toys. Cause yes, my figures are right here.

Pat Flynn: Do you have a Mandalorian helmet behind you too?

Paul Gowder: I do. It’s right there. Yeah.

Pat Flynn: Oh my gosh. This is the one.

Paul Gowder: So that’s when I started building that. Thinking and the term wasn’t around yet, but I think I was thinking I was gonna be a Star Wars influencer, right?

That was, it was gonna blow up. But I also, at the same time was just adding some pages, putting photos about powwows ’cause I had just started learning about it. Friends were taking me to it, to my first few powwows and I was learning. So I was just, I. Threw up a couple of pictures and like, you know, some basic information back then it was easy to get indexed and all of a sudden we’re appearing in, what was it back then, AltaVista and whatever, right?

And so people started coming and asking more questions and wanting me to share more. The Star Wars stuff, nobody cared about because it was before Disney bought them. There were no other movies, but the other stuff, the powwow, it was people asking questions and they wanted to, they wanted to engage with me, but they also wanted to engage with each other.

And it was quickly, people were like, Hey, how else can we be online together? It’s like, okay, well, let’s have a forum. So I threw up a vBulletin forum and that’s when really the community just took off. Community has really been the heart of what we do. This is our 30th anniversary and it, it just continues to grow.

We, you know, we’ve moved platforms, we’ve moved spaces. It is a great community. So in terms of numbers, About 1.8 million followers on Facebook. A hundred and something thousand subscribers on YouTube, Instagram 150,000, TikTok around a hundred thousand. Wow. Yeah. It’s a really, really great community and that’s what continues to drive us forward.

Pat Flynn: This is amazing. First of all, congratulations. Those are huge numbers and to have started 30 years ago. It’s interesting ’cause it’s also the 30 year anniversary of Pokemon this year.

Paul Gowder: Oh yeah.

Pat Flynn: Which is kind of funny, but. Tell me more about what do you mean by powwows? I think people may hear that and not quite understand exactly what that means.

And then if you could extend that to why are people showing up online to connect about this?

Paul Gowder: First, I want to say that powwows are Native American cultural celebrations. They happen for a variety of reasons. Some tribes have annual homecomings. Some are not sponsored by tribes, but by organizations, individuals, whatever.

So they’re for birthdays, sometimes anniversaries. Or there’s ones it just occur every year, they are open to the public and anybody can go and it, you’re, you’re gonna be completely immersed in native culture, food, singing, dancing, crafts, the whole thing. And so if you’re out there and have ever wanted to experience native culture, please, here’s my email.

Yeah. So I have a email series all about what to expect. It’s your first powwow. powwows.com/powwow101. That’ll just tell you all the history, the what everything means and how to find a powwow near you. So yeah, they’re amazing. I went to one in San Diego last year. First time we’ve been to a powwow out there.

The Saquan tribe hosted us out there and we came. So there literally is a powwow in all 50 states, dozens of them in all 50 states. So there’s one near you. You can go find it.

Pat Flynn: That is amazing. That is amazing. And millions of people following. I mean, this is for a lot of people, the first time they’re hearing about such a community obviously we know native american communities exist but online you’re not quite sure kind of what that might be about and so information about what to expect where to find them probably sharing of ideas between tribes on how to make these better and grander i would imagine what else happens in these communities that that you really enjoy?

Paul Gowder: There’s amazing experience. I think, and one of the reasons we do have a following kind of outside the Native community now, in our last powwow live stream, we had 122 countries tune in. Yeah, I think the authentic part of, of people still being in their culture, still being true to their tribe’s history, their culture, I think all of those kind of things resonate with people, especially in this crazy divided times that we’re in.

I think that part of it and the singing, the, the history, the power of those songs, when you hear them, it does resonate with people, not just in the Native community, but all over the world. And people want to know more about it. They want to watch more. And that’s where we, we help people, you know, I, I feel like we are the connector.

We help people connect, experience, and explore Native culture.

Pat Flynn: I love that. Well, you’re speaking my language related to superfans and building community. And one of the things that I talk about in my book, Superfans, is going live and bringing that community together, becoming a hub or a node for all of that.

You said 122 countries watching powwows live. Tell me about your live streaming cadence in terms of rhythm, uh, how often are you going live and what are you using to do so?

Paul Gowder: We do a couple of different things. One, I have a weekly show that I do where I bring guests on or talk about what’s going on in powwows.com, but also, you know, with powwows or whatever. But then our big lives are we go to about 30 powwows a year and. I have a couple teams that help me with that now. And so we travel all over North America and we actually go to powwows and we stream them live. We’re using a variety of things. We’re using Ecamm.

You know, I know we both are friends with and love Ecamm. So we’re using that. We are also using Wirecast. When we do our full production, we’re anywhere from four to six cameras, all PTZ cameras. And, you know, that’s a little bit bigger production than what I do here at home, but yeah, it’s pretty cool.

It’s, it’s grown over the years. We did our first live stream in 2004 and we’ve just been continuing to grow. And it’s, it’s really fun. And again, it’s the community, you know, it’s, it’s in the chats and hearing the people, I think the best compliment we ever get is when somebody says they’re watching from overseas, or they’re watching at home because they can’t travel. They see a family member or they, they feel connected back to their tribe and their culture. That’s the kind of stuff. And that’s what keeps us going. But yeah, it’s been really fun to see that grow over time.

Pat Flynn: So a weekly show done at home through Ecamm, where are you streaming to in terms of platform for that?

Paul Gowder: Right now that is going to Facebook, YouTube. We’re experimenting with TikTok live. Probably going to experiment now that Ecamm is letting us do some verticals. We’ll be doing more.

Pat Flynn: Yeah.

Paul Gowder: TikTok and Instagram, those platforms. But yeah, primarily Facebook and YouTube is, and that’s where our biggest followers are.

Pat Flynn: Facebook, YouTube. Yeah, same on my end. And when it comes to streaming, you’re streaming once and they’re kind of going out to all of them at the same time. Is that correct?

Paul Gowder: Right. We’re using Restream to help us send it to multiple places.

Pat Flynn: Great. And then, you know, I know there’s some challenges with doing that.

Your attention is sort of divided between different platforms. Tell me your thinking or thought process related to the idea of building like a home base on one platform versus streaming to all of them.

Paul Gowder: That is something. I mean, it’s changed over time. Here’s the way I feel and the way kind of our audience feels.

YouTube is our home for video. And so after a powwow is over, maybe I should explain a little bit more. When we stream a powwow, they usually start around 11 a. m. in the morning. And we’ll go, I mean, some powwows, we’re going until three in the morning. So we’re talking about 12 to 16 hours of streaming a day.

After we get back, we’ll take we’ll All of the little clips, most of these powwows are competitions actually where their dancers are competing against each other and we’ll take each clip of a contest and we’ll then we’ll put those up as individual YouTube videos. So that is the kind of the home of all of the video and content that we do and really we push more people to YouTube.

We feel like Facebook is where we go to have new people discover us, to have better organic growth and yes video is a component of I really, you know, if you, if you ask me where to go and watch a powwow video, I’m going to send you to our YouTube channel.

Pat Flynn: That makes sense. You know, I’ve been hearing a lot of people mention Facebook recently and how well it’s doing.

Is it doing well for you? And if so, what does that mean?

Paul Gowder: It’s crazy how well it has been doing. So we have about 1.8 million followers on Facebook right now. There’s not, there’s some powwows going on, but powwow season is generally March through about October during powwow season with 1.7 million followers we were getting anywhere from a 100 to 150 million views a month.

Pat Flynn: Wow.

Paul Gowder: Which is just crazy, right? I mean, remember just a couple of years ago, if you got like 1%, 10 percent of your reach was organic, the numbers are just crazy now. And so we are really focused on, we’re posting more on Facebook. I mean, 15, 20 times a day of content, texts, posts, videos, links, everything, just because the organic reach is there.

And I think it’s part of facebook is really trying to assert themselves as the platform for creators. And now that they have content monetization, I think creators are jumping on that. And it does help the loss of Google traffic. This is kind of helping make up for some of that.

Pat Flynn: For sure.

Paul Gowder: Yeah. So it has been crazy.

Every conference I’ve gone to in the last like six months, I’m telling everybody, it’s like, are you posting on Facebook? And I’m like, once or twice a month. You got to post. You got to post more. So, yeah.

Pat Flynn: You said 15 times a day. A lot of people, you might worry about posting that often and kind of upsetting their followers.

Do you see any backlash from that amount of volume?

Paul Gowder: No, because, and even on my personal, I’ve been watching the numbers and I’m not posting 15 times a day on my personal, but Facebook has gotten so smart at how they distribute your content. A single follower is not going to see all 20 pieces of content in a day.

So they don’t even know that you posted that much. Most of them are only seeing maybe two. If that, right? Even on my personal, I look at on some days when I post two, I was on a cruise last week with our friend Lou Mangiello and some other folks. And I was posting two to three times a day. But if you look at the numbers, It was mostly, it was like 80 percent of the people seeing those posts were non followers.

So it’s not like my mom was getting annoyed that I was posting multiple times. She didn’t see it. I talked to her yesterday and I’m like, mom, did you see that video? And she’s like, no, what, what are you talking about? And I think Facebook is so smart now. I know it used to be you were worried about just bombarding your followers and everybody unfollowing and they’ve taken care of that now.

Their distribution is, is really getting super good.

Pat Flynn: So you’d mentioned your personal stuff. Where are you posting for the Powwow stuff? Is it a page, a group? Tell me a little bit about that.

Paul Gowder: So Powwows.com, our main place is a Facebook page. That’s where we have the 1.8 million followers. Our main group has about 130,000 members.

It’s okay. I feel like Facebook groups come and go with how relevant and the engagement we’re getting. A lot of people join, and honestly, now I treat it as another lead magnet to get people into Kit. So, I’m using a tool called Group Leads. When people ask to join, I ask for their email address. Group Leads scrapes that and moves it right into Kit.

So, it’s a great lead magnet. I just don’t see much engagement now. We’ve actually spun up a Mighty Networks for Powwows, and that’s really where we’re trying to push people. We’re still starting. We’ve only got a few hundred people in there. But just with a few hundred people, I’m seeing more engagement, more conversation, more people like messaging me and say, dude, this is so awesome where I’m actually having real conversations compared to the 130,000 Facebook group, where it’s just people hitting share and like, and there’s no real conversation.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, the pages seem to be picking up again. I remember back in the day in the late 2000s or early 2010s, pages were everything and then they just dropped off a cliff. Then it was groups, and groups was everything, and now it seems to be coming back, and now like you said earlier, with content monetization, I mean, I’ve unlocked that fairly recently on my Facebook page for Deep Pocket Monster, the Pokemon channel, and it’s comparable to YouTube now in terms of revenue that’s coming in, if not sometimes even more, which is pretty crazy.

Paul Gowder: It’s crazy. I was on the ship last week and I was like, Oh, I need to do a video. And I posted a video to Powwows, you know, something I had on my phone. And the next day it had 3 million views and several hundred dollars in revenue. I’m like, how did that? It’s just crazy.

Pat Flynn: That single video.

Paul Gowder: Yeah.

Pat Flynn: That’s crazy.

Paul Gowder: And like you said, Facebook has changed over the years and in six months this probably won’t be the case and content monetization and Facebook reach is going to change. But while it’s here, we all need to jump on it.

Pat Flynn: Yes. So if you’re listening to this and we haven’t put an update in the front or on the landing page or show notes page, definitely take advantage of that.

Where are you finding the content to post 15 times a day? And before that, are you posting 15 times a day anywhere else or just on Facebook?

Paul Gowder: Just on Facebook.

Pat Flynn: Where are you getting that content? Because that’s a lot.

Paul Gowder: It’s a lot. So go back six months before content monetization really, really took off.

It was me scheduling our articles, our blogs, photos, videos. It was me doing all of that, even text posts. Content monetization takes off. I’m listening to Niche Pursuits podcast and I hear them talking about a company out there that helps people build their content monetization. So I partnered with a company called Publisher in a Box.

And so they are helping me post and creating content. Really, really smart people. It’s what they do, help people grow their, their following. And so they’ve taken what we were posting about powwows and they’ve expanded our content topics a little bit.

So now we’re posting more nature. We’re posting historical, environmental, and it’s something my followers really like, and they want to engage with it. And we’re seeing, again, 120, 150 million views a month is because we’re starting to share a little bit outside of our normal content. And it’s, it’s just done tremendously well.

Pat Flynn: That’s interesting. Publisher in a Box. Definitely check them out. And that’s Spencer, is that Spencer’s company? Spencer from Niche Pursuits? Or, or did he just recommend that?

Paul Gowder: No, he was using them. Yeah, he just recommended them.

Pat Flynn: Yeah.

Spencer creates all this stuff, so I wasn’t sure.

Paul Gowder: He does. You’re right, right.

Pat Flynn: I wouldn’t have been surprised.

On the live streams themselves, let’s go into programming, formatting. Do you do anything specific to engage with the followers while they’re watching a powwow, for example? I mean, that’s a long live stream. Do you just kind of set it and forget it? Tell me about your activity during the live stream as somebody producing that.

Paul Gowder: So we try to make sure that we’re in the chat engaging with people. We also will do a few things, especially with some of the really big powwows. We’ll usually run a giveaway or Some type of contest to try to get again, get people back into the newsletter. So, and that’s, again, then we can bring them in and we can really engage with them.

But yeah, it’s, it’s being in the chat. It’s answering questions. We’ve experimented over the years with like actually coming on camera and doing talking head kind of things, and maybe even putting an interview in. My audience doesn’t, they don’t like for us to cut away from the powwow. And since these are nonstop kind of things for those 12 hours, we’ve stopped doing that.

And if we’d We’ll record video or record interviews, record that kind of stuff and show it later. Really, the video is just straight powwow. We don’t interrupt the video as much as we can. Maybe show a QR code again to get people into kit or to promote something. But yeah, it’s mostly in the chat that we’re engaging.

Pat Flynn: Got it. I like the idea of a QR code. A lot of people are watching on televisions now, which is pretty cool. So tell me about the QR code. What are you leading people to generally to collect that email address? And then what happens after that?

Paul Gowder: The two biggest ones that we do during powwows is the what to expect at your first powwow.

So again, because we have so many people outside the native community tuning in, so we’ll send them to that. And that’s a 10 to 15 email sequence that we’ve worked on over the years, and like I said earlier, it takes you through the history, what the dance style is, all that. The other one is for people who are in the powwow community, we have an email sequence of helping people find powwows near them.

We have an event calendar, and we kind of are the biggest repository of powwows. I mean, some years there’s 900 powwows a year or more listed on our calendar, so that can be tough to search. We make it as easy as possible, but that’s why I’d say, hey, look. If you want. me to help you, powwows.com/powwowsnearme, and I’ll give you all the instructions on how to find powwows in your state, your Canadian province, and kind of walk them through that process of finding one close to them.

Pat Flynn: And then after going through one of those sequences, whether for the beginners or finding a powwow, do you have anything that that leads to an offer? Where do you go from there?

Paul Gowder: That’s something that I’ve been really working on the last year as, before, it was just drive traffic and we were monetized with Mediavine and that was enough.

That revenue model is still there, but it’s not like it was because organic search just is terrible. So now I’ve really worked to create some digital products. So like, for example, that What to Expect at Your First Powwow, that is now a digital book that you can get. I even offer it to people when they finish the email sequence.

I’m like, Hey, look, all this stuff we just covered, I have it in a book that you can take it with you. We actually now have a printed version of it as well. So if you want to just take all this with you and keep it, here’s the ebook or here’s the printed version. And so that’s worked well as another source of revenue.

And we’re trying to do more of that, figure out better ways than just trying to drive traffic to the website since that revenue model is not working as well.

Pat Flynn: Yeah. The social media platforms are, I’m assuming, helping out with some of the revenue that was lost with the SEO, especially Facebook, like we talked about.

What is the price point of that ebook and or physical book?

Paul Gowder: The ebook is 12.99. The physical is 17.99, including shipping. And, of course, If you finish the What to Expect It’s Your First PowWow sequence, I give you a 50 percent off if you make it all the way through the end. So, you know, we run specials and deals, but yeah, it’s doing pretty well.

We just came out with the 2026 version a couple weeks ago.

Pat Flynn: Nice. I like that. That’s, that’s a fair price and it feels like very valuable for what you get and what you pay for it. And, you know, even though people have gotten literally the same information in the email sequences, people want them all in one spot or conveniently in a booklet.

And, you know, that’s a great idea, even though it might seem like, oh, well, they already have it, but it’s working and that’s, that’s fantastic.

Paul Gowder: People want to pay for convenience. Yeah, for sure.

Pat Flynn: Exactly. So tell me about plans for the future as we wrap up, I’m curious what maybe innovative things you’re thinking about doing with the live streams and the platform in which you’ve built.

I mean, this community is already successful, but I always know that we need to try to stay at the forefront and try to invent and create some novelty to keep it running. What are you thinking about these days to bring some new flavor into it?

Paul Gowder: Mighty Networks is our new challenge and new thing that I want to build.

Just like email, where I feel like it is one of the few things that you can own and control in this whole social media world. So I really do want to drive people to Kit first and then to our Mighty Networks because It just feels like a better place, better engagement, better control, whatever. So, those are the two things we’re really focused on right now.

Our live streams, we’re working on upgrading cameras, doing some better production value, really looking at that new Ecamm beta so that we can do vertical video along with our regular traditional video. So, we’ll be doing more of that this year. The biggest powwow of the year is coming up in April, and it’s their last one.

The family that runs that has decided to stop. So, yeah, we’re really gearing up for that. In terms of how big it is, it’s about 100,000 to 120,000 people in person.

Pat Flynn: Holy moly.

Paul Gowder: Yeah, I think last year we had 12 million views or something during the weekend. It’s just, it’s crazy big. So we’re working to really ramp that up and to do really good production for that one.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, I mean, I mean, this is. You’re like a film crew and a production crew coming in over there to do that. I’m curious about like the cameras you’re using for that. You said PTZs, which stands for point, tilt, zoom. Do you have models like on in your head about which ones you’re using and what you like?

Paul Gowder: Yeah, we we’re using PTZOptics mostly for kind of stationary cameras that we cover, and then we’re using OBSBOTs as mobile cameras. So the people who sing in the powwow, these drum groups, they’re sitting around a big physical drum and anywhere from 10 guys or more. And so they are hard to get to because some of these drum groups have huge followings, and so people crowd around them, so our PTZs aren’t always able to get the right angle, so we’re using  OBSBOTs on monopods, and we’ll actually go to the drum and kind of get a better angle of them singing.

At the big one in April, Gathering Nations, they actually hire a production company, so that one, it’s a little bit easier for us. They actually have a TV production crew that provides all the cameras, and then we just tie into the feed.

Pat Flynn: Oh, nice. That’s really awesome. Have you explored anything like drones or anything like that for live stuff?

Paul Gowder: We’ve talked about it. Most of the big ones that we go to are inside, so that’s a little prohibitive, but yeah, some of the outside ones we do want to do drones. Our biggest challenge is that we’ve been using Starlink, but the outdoor ones are usually in such remote areas the internet’s not good. So we’ve been really focused on making sure that we get good internet and good signal.

So maybe we’ll look at drones if once we get that, I think this year we’re maybe even starting to like link some star links together and trying to get better bandwidth to these places.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, that’s cool. I mean, honestly, I think live streaming is going to be very, very important for the future of content creation as things become more AI and more perfect seeming. I mean, the live stream feels the most real. The next best thing to being there in person is, is the live streams where anything can happen and it’s real people saying real things. It’s vulnerable. It’s awesome. It’s, it’s unique. It’s in real time. I have been leaning into live more on my side as well.

We’re going to, on the Pokemon side of things, actually ramp up production a little bit. And so that’s why I’m very curious about the cameras you’re using and all that kind of stuff. Lighting, I’m sure is a big component of this as well for you. Any tips or strategies with relation to lighting and things like that?

Paul Gowder: I’ve been really improving the studio over the last few years. The wooden wall back there, my daughter and I built during COVID. That was a cool project.

Pat Flynn: Looks great.

Paul Gowder: Thank you. The blue lighting is new. Creator Camp, Ecamm’s conference. I went up there and talked to a bunch of folks, Luria and some other people really helped me design that.

So there’s actually a Varipole going across there. And so I’ve got a bunch of lights mounted right above my head or just off camera. So that’s been fun to really, you know, kind of improve. And then I’ve got the Elgato lights in front of me doing the front lighting.

Pat Flynn: Looks great. I mean, you don’t see any blue on you.

So it’s behind you pointing at the wall and you have glasses on and I don’t see any reflections, whatever you’ve done. You’ve done very well. So it’s definitely inspirational. Paul, where can people go to see your personal stuff? I know that you teach email marketing and things like that as well. And obviously the Powwow stuff.

I think people are going to be very curious and I’m sure a lot of people will want to learn even more about powwows and where to get started with that. So tell us all the things.

Paul Gowder: I hope so. So want to learn more about powwows? Powwows.com/powwow101 is the what to expect at your first powwow. If you’re just looking to find powwows near you, powwows.com/powwowsnearme. And talking about all this organic Facebook stuff, I took kind of a cue from you and your 30 day video challenge, which I did do, and I’m still going on my personal stuff. So I did a challenge and it’s still out there. I’ve turned it in now to an email challenge, helping people create 26 pieces of content in 10 days for Facebook.

And so you can check that out over at PaulGowder.com/facebookchallenge. Or if you’re just interested in how I do email again, email is really the heart of our community. I think we’ve got a hundred thousand subscribers right now on email and it can do wonders for your business. It’s so, it’s so amazing.

That’s PaulGowder.com/emailtools is how I build my email list.

Pat Flynn: Gowder, G O W D E R, Gowder Lake Powder.

Paul Gowder: That’s it.

Pat Flynn: Awesome, man. Thank you so much. And it was so, so cool to hear about how things are going over there on your end, especially with the Native American powwow. I was like, that is amazing.

And I expect it to continue to grow. So congrats on everything. And thanks for all the inspiration today.

Paul Gowder: Thank you.

Pat Flynn: All right. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Paul Gowder. Again, you can check ’em out powwows.com or of course,  PaulGowder.com. And we mentioned Ecamm Live in this particular episode, and I wanna give a shout out and thank you to them for sponsoring this episode.

They are amazing. Definitely check them out. If you wanna go and check out our discount that’s available, head on over to SmartPassiveIncome.com/ecamm. And you’ll see that available for you there. And please, please, I beg you, give live streaming a try if you haven’t already. This is the future of content creation because everything is needing to be real these days to counter all of the fake stuff that’s out there.

So go live and check out Ecamm live at  SmartPassiveIncome.com/ecamm. We’ll see you in the next episode. Be sure to hit subscribe or follow so you don’t miss out. And I’ll see you in the next one. Cheers.