AP 1112: How Do I Grow My Podcast From a Hobby to a Business?

AP 1112: How do I Grow My Podcast from a Hobby to a Business

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Pat Flynn:
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Pat:
What's up everybody. Pat Flynn here and welcome to episode 1,112 of AskPat 2.0. You're about to listen to a coaching call between myself and an entrepreneur just like you. Thanks again for being here. And today we're talking with Marc Ronick who is the cohost of a podcast, and he's a big time podcaster. He's been doing it much longer than most people. And you can find his show at marcandlowell.com or just look up the Marc and Lowell Show. That's a Marc with a C. And we're going to talk with Marc today because he wants to turn this hobby podcast of his that has an amazing audience—It's not really about solving problems. It's not necessarily about information, it's about mostly entertainment—However, we want to also see how we might be able to make money and do it in a very graceful way where everybody wins, which is my kind of marketing.

Pat:
So we're going to talk about that with Marc today, and he's got a lot to say and a lot to ask about and a lot that will help you too. So listen in. This is Marc from the Marc and Lowell show. Here he is. Marc, welcome to AskPat 2.0. Thanks for being here.

Marc Ronick:
Hey, thanks for having me, Pat. Really happy to be here.

Pat:
Happy you're here as well. And I would love to get to know you a little bit more and what you're up to before I help you. So tell us a little bit about yourself and what you got going on.

Marc:
Sure. I'm from Maryland, and I've got a wife and a blended family of three, 16, 17, and 18 years old. Currently a TV producer by day and then at night an entrepreneur and a podcaster. Been involved in podcasting probably longer than many of your clients, for probably twelve years now, and I started with my own fantasy football podcast, which now I'm sure you know, they're all over the place.

Pat:
Everywhere.

Marc:
Yeah, soon after I was actually contacted by a podcasting company because I had this idea to develop really what was the first ever fantasy sports channel that they streamed live shows and recorded. A couple of years later, let's just say that Sirius XM liked the idea so much that they built their own channel and it's very successful to this day. In 2010, I ended up joining a really popular radio show that had turned podcast and I did that for several years. And then I started my own podcast during that tenure in 2011, and that's the one actually I'd like to talk to you more about. And then in 2014, I actually started a small podcasting network. Really just a lot of smaller podcasts that we tried to unite with each other and use the power of a group to continue to grow. And we have about a dozen shows on that platform as well. So, very busy and I also enjoy, similarly to you, I enjoy helping other people with podcasting.

Pat:
Very nice. Love it. Awesome. So lots of stuff, especially in the podcasting space. What's the show that you would love us to start discussing?

Marc:
It's called the Marc and Lowell show, L-O-W-E-L-L. And Lowell and I are best friends. We've been friends since 1987. We went to sleep-away camp together. And coincidentally or maybe not so coincidentally, my wife and I also went to that same sleep-away camp together. So you'll hear lots of stories on our show from our childhood. And since we're friends to this day as adults as well, we tell lots of funny stories, real life stories, and talk about all the different things that interest us and our audience.

Pat:
That's cool. So Marc with a C and Lowell Show. And how long have you been podcasting there? You said that was like 2012?

Marc:
Yeah, it's been eight years in December.

Pat:
Wow. And you're still friends after podcasting together for that long?

Marc:
Still friends. Yes. I mean we've had some ups and downs, but yes, still friends for sure.

Pat:
Cool. So what's on your mind?

Marc:
Well, there are two main areas of guidance that I was hoping to get from you today. And the main one really is how to really grow my podcast audience and evolve from something that's a little more than a hobby to a strong source of income or really a business. We've certainly grown through the years, but we've hit a plateau over the past couple of years. And some of it, or a lot of it really, I think is our own fault and we can get into that. But yeah, we're looking to really grow it and monetize it, make it a substantial source of income for us. And then really the other area, which is was kind of a side note and we can get to it if we can, but I'm looking to really find my superpower. And I have ideas of what that may be and I mentioned it earlier with helping other people with podcasting. And I know you wrote, Will It Fly?, And I'm looking forward to reading that. So I wanted to just talk to you briefly a little bit about that when you have a moment.

Pat:
Yeah, let's start there actually, because that will help me get to know you a little bit more if you don't mind.

Marc:
Sure.

Pat:
When you get to, Will It Fly? there's a section about discovering your superpower. And the example I use is the Shark Tank. When you walk into Shark Tank with your idea, Kevin O'Leary, the Mr. Wonderful in the middle, will often question people who present a business idea or business that's going, "Hey, what's stopping me from buying a bunch of people and a bunch of products and just doing exactly what you're doing? Like, why should I hire you? What is unique about you that would entice me to invest in you?" And a lot of people get really frazzled when that question is asked often. And so painting that picture of realizing how important that superpower is is fantastic. So I love that you're asking this question.

Pat:
It's an exercise that I think everybody needs to do for themselves. And I would always start with, well, what do people come to you for? Where are you always getting questions about? Like, we could start there and then I have some other perhaps exercises that you and the audience can do to help you discover your superpower. Sometimes it's hard for us to know what our own superpower is. We can't read the label when we're inside the bottle. And so before I go into that, like tell me about what you feel your superpowers are? Like what are you good at? What are you, what do people come to you for often?

Marc:
Well, it's just that, it's podcasting. And I have friends, I have family, I've had referrals all come to me at different times, all asking me to help them either get started with their podcast or help them improve upon what they're doing. And even more so, being their producer, helping them on the day to day or week to week, what have you. And I truly enjoy it. I love helping other people, especially with things that I know so much about that I've been doing for so long. And often I seem to help them better than I help my own self when it comes to the exact same thing. And I've worked with all sizes—big and small. So I keep coming back to this idea of doing something like you do, but I certainly don't want to be competition for you.

Marc:
And so it's tough. I'm not sure... And we'll get into it really why I'm having this struggle... And I guess I'll just tell you, you know my podcast as I explained, it's really an entertainment in my mind an entertainment-comedy type podcast. We don't have that superpower. We don't have that niche. We're not selling a specific service like many of your clients do. And that's my struggle. And I actually have been to some of your office hours before and I've asked that question to you before and you've given me some good answers. But I'm really excited about digging in here a little more.

Pat:
You're looking for a better answer.

Marc:
Yeah. Well not a better, but just a more detailed one.

Pat:
Well, it's funny because you were like my friends, my family, they're coming to me and they want my help, but I'm not going to help them personally because Pat Flynn's also doing something else over here. Like that's kind of funny to me that they want your help, but because I'm helping others in the same way, you're not helping them. Do you see the disconnect there?

Marc:
Yes, I do.

Pat:
And it's so funny cause that's literally what happened to me too. So in 2017, I have had a lot of people since my podcast has just exploded, ask me to teach them how to podcast. And what would I always say? No. Like go to John Lee Dumas, go to Cliff Ravenscraft. These people, they're already doing it and they're serving people. And I would hand them off and yeah, I would get like an affiliate commission check here and there.

Pat:
But what I was also doing was going, "No, I know you want to learn from me, but I don't have time for you," or "That's not important to me. Somebody else can do it." And what I eventually realized was I was doing my audience and the people who are asking me for help, a complete disservice by handing them off. And at the same time when I handed them off, I would often never see them again, because they would be taken care of by somebody else or they would not have a great experience there, and I'd feel even worse, because I was the one that pointed them over there. So I realized that I could actually create that experience in the way that I knew I could do it in my own special way, and I could serve those people who would want to be served by me. And you have the luxury of already having people tell you what they want, and you're just pushing them away.

Marc:
Right. When I do help them, I thoroughly enjoy it and, like I said, I think I helped them in many better ways than I help myself with my own pod...

Pat:
And here's also what I'm hearing. Like I think when you had mentioned that you are also interested in the producer part, the day to day part, that's something that I would never offer and not... I don't care to offer, wouldn't even have the time to do. To me, there's almost a built in superpower already with just what you enjoy doing. And that's the perfect way to approach it is just... Well, that's like that Venn diagram of like, okay, like you want to sell what you're good at, but also like what you enjoy doing. And then you're in that middle mark already. That's the ideal situation. And I think that perhaps it's just always been there for you and you just need to commit mentally to doing that and offering that and enjoying that. And for me also just, I come from a place in how I felt comfortable, creating my own stuff, even though some of my friends had their own stuff too. That was in a very similar way.

Pat:
I was worried about the quote competition. I didn't want to step on any toes, and I got a lot of support because the people who had those things also came from a place of abundance. Knowing that they also knew that they had personal brands and people who wanted stuff from them who would never buy from me because they want John Lee Dumas. And that at the same time they also knew that there would be people who would only want to buy from and work with Pat Flynn. Just like how there are only people out there who want to work with you, Marc with a C. So I think that the answer is very clear to me. And I'm curious to know what else might be stopping you. Like if you need permission, like from me, do it.

Pat:
Like I don't know if that's ultimately what you need-

Marc:
All right. There's the show. Thank you, everybody.

Pat:
Like honestly, I could... And here's how I love to approach "competition." You can become, if you know your superpower, complementary. So I could see it getting to a point where if I know your stuff's good and... whatever, not saying this is going to happen, not guaranteeing anything. But for example, a person coming to me going, Pat, I want you to be my producer, and I want you to be in the day to day with me. And I go, well, that's not what I do. That's not what I know. There's this guy Marc, though. He will do that for you. Let me get you guys connected. So now you're not competition for me. You're actually helping me fill in the gaps that I can't fill in myself because that's not what I'm into.

Marc:
That makes perfect sense. I like that a lot. And yeah, it really is because look Pat, I think that you do a wonderful job. You really re-inspired me, re-motivated me, to get into this podcasting, relaunch my podcast and to hear you say, This could be a complementary thing, whether it's with you or somebody else, what have you. I think that's exciting and even more motivating.

Pat:
And I think the producer part is the key. That to me stood out and I don't know anybody else who's really owning that. And the cool thing about that is you can make your way up to becoming just a huge leader in that space and having higher end clients that you couldn't even imagine if you were to own that, because a lot of those people don't want to deal with that.

Marc:
Yeah, right. And that's why they have come to me is because they don't either know how to do it or they don't want to do it. And I really do enjoy it. Like I said, I've been producing my podcast for the past eight years, and I think I've gotten pretty darn good at it.

Pat:
Yeah. And I'm even thinking like, I've been to a bunch of events recently this year, and I've had people go up to me and go, Pat, like I want to start a podcast, but I don't want to do anything but just record. I don't want to get into the weeds of it all. I need somebody. Do you have somebody or can you come over to my house and do it for me? And I'm like, "No." And I do have a couple people that I recommend sometimes, but like they're also busy and I don't like, we need somebody to recommend. So I don't know. I'm just saying.

Marc:
Well, we'll have to talk even more.

Pat:
Yes. Anyway, I hope that clears that up.

Marc:
It does. It does. And I will be getting that book to further this endeavor. That's for sure.

Pat:
Yeah. Eventually what it's going to teach is you is: start small. You can test, try it out. If you love it, awesome, if not awesome. You know the answer now and you can move forward from there, versus "what if" or "I don't know if this will ever happen." That's really what the idea of, Will It Fly? is about.

Marc:
Understood.

Pat:
So let's talk about your show now, Marc and Lowell Show growth and monetization. What have you been doing proactively to grow the show, if anything? Recently?

Marc:
Well, recently I purchased this thing called Power Up Podcasting and it's worked very well for me. I'll tell you. So I started going through the course and got very excited, very motivated. And I'd say a little more than halfway, no fault of yours, I started getting discouraged going through it because the course, it's perfect for entrepreneurs that have a niche and a superpower like we've been talking about. But because I couldn't figure out how to truly apply it to my "entertainment podcasts," I got frustrated. I got discouraged. Same idea with your book, SuperFans. Started reading it, I got super motivated. And then I got a little discouraged for those same reasons. I had a hard time figuring out how to apply your teachings to an entertainment-style podcast.

Pat:
When it comes to entertainment, who is the brand?

Marc:
Right. And that's one of the things that I picked up on. And like I said, I have been going through the course and one of the first things I did was I talked to my audience. Now, we have several thousand listeners per episode. So we have a strong fan base to start with. It's just been stagnant. But when I asked them, "What is it about our show? Because I wanted to find what's our niche. The most common thing I heard was, we're relatable. Sure. We make them laugh too. But everybody kept saying we're relatable. And one of the exercises I went through is I wrote a description based on all the different things I heard. And if you don't mind, can I read you the description of the show?

Pat:
I would love to hear it.

Marc:
Okay, so it's "lifelong friends, Marc and Lowell, along with the cast of old friends, prove that it's okay to laugh at yourself and each other no matter how embarrassing things get. We cover many topics and personal stories including relationships, careers, parenting, technology, TV, movies, all things eighties and nineties." I will say, Pat, Back to the Future is definitely a popular topic on our show.

Pat:
Good, because if it wasn't, I would just cancel this.

Marc:
And then to continue, "you're not the only one facing many of life's challenges. So take a break from your own reality and relate to ours all while enjoying that familiar feeling of hanging out and catching up with old friends." And I've shared it with my audience. They all feel that I've hit the nail on the head. So that's kind of my onus. And actually, from one of your office hours, you had said, "Maybe parents are kind of that niche," your parents are in a similar range. Our cast of characters, we've got some parents that's got young toddlers, and like myself, I've got all teenagers. But maybe there's an angle there with parents, maybe mainly men, since we have mostly men on the show. That's kind of what I'm thinking. But you tell me what you think.

Pat:
I think that's a thought. And to me that thought of just niching in that way leads to, well what personalities who have groups of those kinds of people could we potentially connect with on the show? Because one growth strategy for a podcast is not just the topics that you talk about, it's who's on your show and who's going to bring more people with them. And so, if, say for example, you and Lowell decided to have a conversation about just all about parenting one day. And as a special guest, a featured guest on that episode, you had another podcaster on who was also a parent in, they were like in that niche. And maybe that's the draw for them is, "Hey, we're creating a complete episode about parenting. We don't often talk about this specifically, but we also know that you have this audience of parents and we thought they'd love to have you come on in a lighthearted conversation like we've been old friends. And we can just chat and have fun and make them laugh.

Pat:
And if you want your audience to laugh and just take a break from all the serious stuff you always talk about like, you can send them our way and we can all have a good time." So that's the benefit of that for the podcaster, but they're also bringing potentially their listeners along with them too, because they're going to have a good time and have a laugh and just chat like old friends. So that's where I see the niching happening because I think if you like niche your entire show to Hey that we're only now doing entertainment for parents. Like that pigeonholes you a little bit, and it doesn't seem like that's what you want. You want to just-

Marc:
Yeah, I don't want to upset our current audience if we all of a sudden change and we're just for parents. I don't want to do that to them either.

Pat:
Here's the exercise that I think will be even more helpful than the one you did with your audience about your description. I would share that description to strangers and ask them for their feedback, because your current audience, they know you already. Every word that you said in the description, likely they're like, yep, that's exactly right and this is why I love them. They're fantastic, but we want to grow your show, which means we're going to get new listeners. So how might a potential new listener respond to that description? That's what is interesting. We often write the description for our current listeners versus how do we sell our show to somebody who has yet to listen to our show? Because the first part of your description was longtime friends, Marc and Lowell, discuss... And if I'm coming to new I'm like, I don't even know who Marc and Lowell are.

Pat:
I don't even care that they're best friends. No offense. You need to sell the show for me, somebody brand new. And I think that's going to be the challenge. And I think you can. I think you can still sell Marc and Lowell and the conversations you're having, the laughing out loud. And I think that it might be on the angle of, "Hey, do you need to laugh out loud? Well come and listen to this show." Like laugh at yourself, laugh... Like let's just decompress from how stressful life is. Come in here and just enjoy conversations about things that are going to make you... I don't know. I don't know the exact-

Marc:
I think what you're actually saying is the second part of the first sentence I read to you, because the second part is that we, Marc and Lowell, prove that it's okay to laugh at yourself and each other no matter how embarrassing things get. Maybe that's the opening line or something along those lines.

Pat:
I love that because I can imagine if I listened to a couple episodes and I'm really liking it, I'm more likely to be a fan of that immediately versus Marc and Lowell. Eventually I'm to become your super fan. But in the beginning I want to be a fan of what this is giving me and the feelings it's giving me and the idea: Man, I can listen to this podcast and like laugh at myself. Guys, you got to check this out. These guys, Marc and Lowell, they seem pretty cool. But listen to this episode because you're going to... You went to college with me and they talk about college on this episode and like how crazy it was. You'll remember some of the... You'll relive some of our past together listening to these guys.

Marc:
That's funny because that is what a lot of our audience tells us is they feel like they're either flies on the wall with a group of friends hanging out, talking, or they feel like they're actually with our group of friends sitting there and they are yelling at their iPhones because they want to participate in that conversation.

Pat:
Yeah, see. So you're selling the concept, the talking and the laughing out loud at yourself first before Marc and Lowell. And then, Marc and Lowell just naturally will surface up and then you become the brand. Then you are what people follow. Then you are what people will support. I can imagine for a podcast like this that in addition to when you get those numbers larger, just regular sponsorships and advertising perhaps, I could imagine a Patreon model where your fans who just are really close to you just want to support you guys. And I think that becomes a primary model. I know a few people, Tom Merritt, one of them, he talks tech. He's earning five figures a month on Patreon I believe at this point just from his fans who love him.

Marc:
Right. And see that's funny because again, I work with one guy who does podcasting and he's got Patreon. He also sells his content in other ways and I help him do that. Yet I'm not doing it for myself.

Pat:
All the puzzle pieces are there, Marc. I think that they're there. I think you know what to do with them. I think you just needed permission, number one. And I'm not saying I am only allowing people after I give them permission to do things. What I mean is permission for you to go and do what you know you need to do, not because it would be a competing product. But also the idea of you need to sell the show before Marc and Lowell to brand new people. And I think naturally what's going to happen is the people who then get in start to share it with each other. That plus encouraging your listeners to invite their friends to listen too, I think is a clear call to action that can insert its way into the show if you haven't done that already.

Marc:
Yeah, absolutely. We definitely do that but we don't do it enough nor do we do it consistently. So I do love that suggestion. We got to get back into that kind of thing.

Pat:
I think the topic or the kinds of content you can create could lend itself to sharing more. If you could strategically come up with show ideas such that it would be one that would encourage people to share with each other. Like just the nature of the topic of that idea. It might be like, again to go back to the college example, like reconnecting with old friends. That's the topic idea. Or reconnecting with old high school friends. And then what it could do would be in some way maybe challenge them to go, Okay guys, and if like I want you to... I'm spit balling here, but, Hey guys, on this episode we're going to live call people that we were friends with in high school that we haven't chatted with in years and you're going to listen in on how weird these conversations are. And I want you to do it too.

Pat:
And then what likely is going to happen is they're going to go, Yeah, this is so funny that... And I'm so glad we're reconnecting. There was these guys, Marc and Lowell, who challenged me to do this on this podcast. That would be pretty cool. Like stuff like that.

Marc:
That's a great, great idea. I really love that idea. We got to do more of that kind of thing. That actually, even though you're spitballing, Pat, I think that's actually a pretty good idea. You're onto something.

Pat:
Thanks, man. And that becomes fun. That hooks me onto the show too. Like you're going to call people that you haven't talked to in twenty years and actually share that with their permission, obviously. But that's kind of cool. I don't know. Stuff like that sounds like the kinds of stuff that would be cool and that you would have already done. And I'm sure it's kind of like that, but just-

Marc:
Oh yeah.

Pat:
Cool, dude. I love it. Is that helpful?

Marc:
Yeah. So Patreon, that's definitely been one of my thoughts is to get back into selling some of our content as well. And we do have advertisers. We do affiliate stuff. But I was curious if you have any suggestions either how we can better improve upon what we do or any other ideas as far as monetization of the podcast.

Pat:
An event would be the last thing, whether it's an online event or a in-person event that people could get tickets to. And get access to you and be able to ask questions and just feel like a part of the gang. I could see that being another model that would be really fun and exciting. I can definitely see that being a part of it.

Marc:
Yeah. And again, we used to do that. This kind of goes back to something I said earlier is, there was a point... We have been doing this for eight years, so there was a point that we were fizzling. Everybody goes through it where it's just that time where you're just not sure if you're going to continue. You're just struggling a bit. And we used to do that every so often, have those events. So we do need to get back to that. I really liked that idea and I love community and I love that sense of community and people getting to know us, us getting to know them. It really creates a bond with our audience.

Pat:
Yeah. I love that. Like maybe, you sell each person two tickets. So they have to bring somebody else and they get invited with their endorsement to be a part of that event online or offline. And they just get to meet you in that sort of way. I don't know. Might be kind of cool.

Marc:
Yeah. Well maybe I'll learn from FlynnCon2, because I think I want to go to that for sure.

Pat:
Awesome. Thank you. That'll be epic and that'd be really fun. So very cool. Do you mind if we check in with you maybe sometime in 2020 to see how things have been going and hold you accountable, and just get a sense for where things have gone since today?

Marc:
I would love to do that.

Pat:
Awesome. We'll reach back out to you at some point and check in on you. Marc, thank you so much for coming on. And tell us one more time where we can go and find everything.

Marc:
I will. And first I just again, I got to say, I'm grateful for you Pat. I'm grateful for what you do. I think you do it better than I've seen anywhere. And I really hope that if there are people on the fence on whether or not they want to utilize one or many of your services, they really need to give it a shot. Because it has really inspired me and motivated me after all these years of doing podcasting, thinking I didn't want to do it anymore. This really got me back on track, so I am grateful for you, my friend.

Pat:
Dude, you're awesome. I'm grateful for you as well. Keep up the great work and we will chat soon.

Marc:
Well, let me give you my podcast again, MarcandLowell.com.

Pat:
Awesome. Thanks man.

Marc:
Thanks.

Pat:
All right. I hope you enjoyed that episode with Marc, the host of the Marc and Lowell Show. Go ahead and check it out. You're listening to a podcast right now. You can listen to it right now. That is again, Marc with a C and Lowell. L-O-W-E-L-L. Marc, thank you so much for coming on and for being honest and your vulnerability. I think it's just so helpful and fantastic when people like yourself come on and just share a little bit of the struggles so that we can help everybody. So I appreciate you for that. And if you're listening to this and you'd like to get some coaching and some help and also help other people too, might you consider filling out an application for AskPat? If you go to askpat.com, you can actually fill out an application right now. I can't possibly select everybody, but I'm not going to select you if you don't try.

Pat:
So go there, fill out the application, let me know what's going on and I might select you. It's not first come first serve, it's based on what you say. So hopefully, we can connect in the future. And again, thank you so much for subscribing to the podcast and for all the amazing reviews that have been coming in lately on Apple Podcasts. That means so much to myself and my team and we read them and we get fired up by them. And I just want to thank you so much for being here. And as always, if you haven't yet gotten your ticket to FlynnCon, they're going fast. And of course we're here. By the time that this episode comes out, they might be sold out. So you can come to San Diego this July and join myself and other entrepreneurs just like you.

Pat:
Just head on over to FlynnCon, F-L-Y-N-N-C-O-N dot com, and you can see if there's any tickets available. I'd love to have you, host you, and show you around San Diego. And just give you amazing things that you could take home with you to take your business to the next level. And you can meet some friends too. So FlynnCon.com would be awesome. And just finally, just keep rocking it. Make sure you hit subscribe if you haven't already, because we've got some great stuff coming your way soon. And as always, #TeamFlynnforthewin. Peace.