Flops 001: The Pyramid Scheme

Flops 001: The One About the Pyramid Scheme

Karen Beattie:
"I landed in this country with $2.50 in cash and a million dollars in hopes, and those hopes never left me."

Those are the words of Charles Ponzi, who may have been the quintessential dreamer and schemer. In 1920 after just eight months of diligent grifting, Ponzi turned those hopes into fortune raking in an estimated $15 million, which is about 195 million in today's dollars. He did this by scamming 40,000 innocent Bostonians out of their hard earned dough in a fraudulent plan that would become his namesake. Exactly how did Ponzi pull this off?

Ponzi's success had a lot to do with the magic of arbitrage, buying something for less and selling it for more. You see, in Ponzi's heyday, you could buy a prepaid international postage reply coupon in a foreign country and exchange it for a US postage stamp worth more money. If you bought a coupon in Spain, for instance, you could redeem it back in the United States for roughly a 10% profit. Now, arbitrage opportunities can be legitimate ways to make money. People have built entire businesses out of buying goods cheaply and reselling them on sites like Amazon or eBay. But in Ponzi's case, postal coupon arbitrage was just a front for a deceptive scheme of massive proportions.

In a so called Ponzi or pyramid scheme, scammers take money from new investors to pay off their debts to previous investors. It's borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. Anyway, investors in these schemes are typically promised outrageous returns. Ponzi promised his investors of 50% haul in just 90 days. In comparison, banks in those days were only offering around a 5% return. Oh the life changing magic of getting rich quick. But the magic only lasts as long as the number of unwary investors keeps growing. To expand the circle, scammers coach original investors to recruit new ones, and the whole thing balloons until there are no investors left to enlist. Eventually, the balloon burst leaving a huge mess.

Anyhow, Ponzi who is a dapper dresser with a natural charm got to work selling his scheme far and wide. He told people he had agents all over the world buy up postal coupons and redeeming them in the US. Did he really have agents all over the world? Nope. Instead, he was taking money from new investors to pay off the old ones and making a lot of money doing it. Naturally, Ponzi's unusual success raised the suspicions of local journalist and authorities.

He was able to hide the scheme for several months. He even avoided two potentially devastating runs on his company by skittish investors, but he could only fend off fate for so long.

In the summer of 1920, an audit by the Massachusetts bank commission and a newspaper investigation into Ponzi's prior criminal activity revealed his scheme for the mirage that it was. When it all tumbled down like a house of cards, six banks failed, Ponzi's investors received less than 30 cents on the dollar of their original investment, and Ponzi ended up in prison for 14 years for mail fraud. A final audit of his company assets turned up a mere $61 worth of postal reply coupons. Thankfully, Ponzi’s scheme was the last of its kind and the knowledge of how he managed to hoodwink 40,000 people a century ago has kept door wide investors free from crooked schemes ever since.

Just kidding. People are still running Ponzi schemes and sadly succeeding with them to this day. On the podcast today, we're going to hear from a modern day victim of a Ponzi scheme, John Vuong. He's an entrepreneur who lost over $100,000 when an acquaintance of his who is just as charming as Charles Ponzi offered him a deal he couldn't refuse.

This is Flops.

Welcome to Flops, where we uncover what happens when business plans go up in smoke and what we can learn from sifting through the ashes. I'm Karen Beattie, Senior Content Manager at SPI Media.

Ray Sylvester:
And I'm Ray Sylvester, Senior Writer at SPI Media, a company that gives entrepreneurs the knowledge, guidance and community they need at all stages of their business building journey. And as the content team at SPI, Karen, we love helping entrepreneurs tell their stories, especially when they're stories of success. We love success.

Karen:
Yes, we love success. But these stories of achievement also remind us of the simple fact that there's a flip side of that. And entrepreneurship is risky, and when we're trying to build something new, failure is very much an option. Which got us thinking, what can we and others learn from the stories of entrepreneurs who have failed?

Ray:
Yes. And when we say failed, we mean really failed. In this podcast, we'll be sharing stories of big failure and recovery from everyday entrepreneurs to uncover how failure can spark learning, inspire bold new ideas, lead to surprising redemptions and offer a chance to build something better.

Karen:
And also, you know, avoid failure in the first place, if possible.

Ray:
Yeah, of course.

Karen:
So, Ray, here we are, it’s episode one. Why should our listeners tune into a show about failure?

Ray:
Good question.

Karen:
And why are you intrigued enough with it to want to host Flops with me?

Ray:
Another good question. Well, I think the short answer is that success is so celebrated, success stories are easy to find, and when failure gets highlighted it’s usually in the context of some wider success. So I think it could be really cool and powerful to approach the topic of failure more head-on, to put it front and center in a sensitive way. So to give entrepreneurs a safe space where they can share their failure stories and we can create more of an opportunity to lean in, to examine some of the sharper edges of failure, some of the murky details, how it happens, how does it unfold, how do you recover from failure? What are some of the lasting impacts that failure can leave, both positive and negative? So I think there’s a big opportunity to dig in a little bit and share some of the gritty reality of owning a business that doesn’t always get the limelight.

So Karen, let me throw the same question back to you: Why are you here?

Karen:
Well, I agree with everything you said, and for me I think I want to normalize failure. In today’s social media-obsessed world, we’re alway presenting the best sides of ourselves and it’s easy to doubt and wonder, “Why am I not as successful as this person or that person?” But we don’t know their whole story. Maybe that successful-looking person has had many failures on the way that we just don’t know about. And as entrepreneurs you want to put your best foot forward in public, you have an image and brand to protect, but I think talking about our failures and being vulnerable is actually something that can bring authenticity and vulnerability to our work in the long-run.

Ray:
Yeah, vulnerability for sure. Well, I’m glad that we’re on the same page, it sound like, and I’m excited to share these stories with the world.

Karen:
Yeah, me too.

Ray:
Awesome. Well now that’s out of the way, let’s talk about what to expect in the rest of this episode.

Karen:
Sure. So we heard about Charles Ponzi and unfortunately, people have been getting conned by scammers like him since long before and long after Ponzi made a dishonorable name for himself.

Ray:
Right. And in this inaugural episode of Flops, we're going to hear from a modern day entrepreneur named John Vuong, who lost tons of money when he fell prey to a modern-day pyramid scheme in his 20s.

Karen:
Yeah. John has an incredible story, one that can teach us a lot about how to tell a real opportunity from a fraudulent one, and how to take the right kinds of risks when you're trying to build a business with integrity.

Ray:
And spoiler alert, John was thankfully able to claw his way back from his devastating financial loss and turn his life around. But it was not an easy road. Let's hear his story.

Hi, John. Welcome to the show.

John Vuong:
Thanks a lot for having me, Ray.

Ray:
Yeah. So I was wondering if you could just give us a little explanation of who you are and what you do.

John:
Yeah, definitely. So, my name is John Vuong. I am the founder and owner of a company called Local SEO Search. I started this company seven years ago, and we're located in Toronto, Canada. And I solely focus on servicing small and medium sized businesses in Canada and North America, actually. But mainly service based professional services.

Ray:
Cool, cool. And how long have you been doing that? How long have you had that business?

John:
Seven years. Previous to that I was in advertising sales for 10 years.

Ray:
Got you. Very cool. So as the reason we're talking today is because you have a story of failure that you were open to share with us.

John:
Yeah, definitely. So while working in advertising sales, I was always very hungry, I was very much motivated by money at that time. In my early 20s or mid 20s, I was always striving to be more, do more, and have more. And at that time, I probably saved up about 50,000 or so. And that would be sufficient enough for me to put a down payment on a condo or a home or whatnot. But instead, I was a very much of a risk taker, and I got caught up in a multi-level marketing or a scheme or pyramid scheme.

And I was caught up with someone that deceived me and not only took some of my money and a lot of my friends' money — because I was responsible for some of that as well — but also put me into a pretty big debt situation. And I was not sure if I wanted to file for bankruptcy and start right over or plug away and slowly pay it off.

Ray:
Got you. So you were caught up in what we would think of as a classic Ponzi scheme. Is that what it was?

John:
Yeah. And I think I was down for at least $100,000.

Ray:
I can imagine that probably had a huge impact on your life, and we'll definitely get into some of those details. But I would love to hear a little bit more about who you were and how you ended up getting involved in this scheme.

John:
Yeah. So growing up, I grew up as an immigrant son or child of four from ... My parents came from Vietnam, so we didn't have much growing up. Lived in government housing. So, for me, it was an opportunity to not just earn money when I first got my job and career started. But really, I wanted to do more, I wanted to have more. I always wanted to drive that nice car or live in a nice fancy home. And I was always chasing. And therefore I was very open to meeting people and I was very vulnerable at that time.

Being in my mid 20s, I was always chasing for fast returns, not just in sales, but in life. So that's where I think I got caught up chasing. I was attracted by very attractive return on investment, and a scheme that really liquidated and really wiped me out dry after two years, and I had to start from ground zero again.

Ray:
So I wanted to go back a little bit to the moment you got involved with the scheme. It sounds like there was one person kind of in the middle of, or directing, orchestrating this, is that correct?

John:
Yeah. So someone that was involved, the mastermind of it all, he was really good in sales. He pretty much conned me and he conned dozens of others that were vulnerable, that were seeking out fast returns. And that's where I learned like me being a risk taker in sales allowed me to be involved in a lot more opportunities, but things that come too quickly or too easily should be really well thought out. I jumped into things really quickly at that age.

Ray:
And was this someone that you knew personally? Like, how did you make first contact with the person who was running the scheme? Or did you learn about them through someone else who was involved? What was that relationship with him like?

John:
I was dating someone and the girl introduced me, and I thought she was involved, but she also got conned.

Ray:
Got it. Okay. Like, Where did you meet him? Like, what was that first meeting like?

John:
We actually met at his business. So he ran a printing shop business.

Ray:
Got you. And so you met at his office. What was your first interaction with him like. Was he really charming or how did he dress?

John:
Yeah. He dressed, looked like a normal business owner. I've encountered a lot of business owners over my years. He acted, and it felt like he was busy. He was doing stuff to look like he was actually running a real business. It was a front.

Ray:
And what he like, personally charming? Like, did he kind of win you over?

John:
Definitely. He spoke very well, very fluent. He was definitely a salesperson. He definitely knew how to ask the right questions, really warmed up really quickly, and felt like he was actually wanting to help me at that time become more profitable and try to invest properly. He cared, it felt like.

Ray:
You mentioned that this had an effect, a negative effect, on some of your relationships. Can you tell me what that meant for you? Who did you draw in to be part of this scheme with you?

John:
Yeah. Definitely some of my friends, because they trusted me. I'm luckily to still be friends with some but not others. Because, again, when it comes to money, and when they lose it, you're the one who brought them in. So then you become accountable. I also had lawsuits against me, because I'm the one that brought them in. So not only did it break a lot of our friendships and relationships, but it also really made me think about why I was doing in the first place. Like, really reflect on, yes, I brought people in but why did they also want to come in? And what was really in it for me? I wanted to help people and I thought it was the right thing to do, and I trusted this person who conned us all.

Ray:
Tell me a little bit about the mechanics of the scheme. Like, what did it actually look like? How did it work? I'm sure it had some surface characteristics that made it seem like a real business or an investment opportunity of some sort.

John:
Yeah, so it had opportunities to generate lucrative returns, where they were selling bulk paper products at a very huge volume. And what they wanted to do was resell at profit. So there's always that distribution channel and there's margin. And it sounded really good to be dealing with the supplier to then distribute it with a margin. For me, it sounded great and it felt right. But of course, I didn't dig deep enough to know exactly what was going on. And that's where he knew exactly what was going on. And he used the money to offshore the money and never really sold the product. He was just taking the money and siphoning it off to his offshore accounts.

Ray:
So what kind of evidence did the person at the center of the scheme provide to pretend that this was a real business or opportunity?

John:
Yeah. Bank statements, but of course, they were probably phony, invoices that were phony. Everything could be falsified and documented. So I didn't dig deep enough. I didn't fact check. I didn't verify. I didn't go into the actual businesses. If I was going to invest any money now, I would actually drive and see if they were legitimate real businesses, same thing the invoices and suppliers and customers. So all these things being younger, I didn't know what to do at that time.

Ray:
Tell me about the exact moment when you realized that you had been scammed. So like, the very moment where it just hit you. Like, where were you? What was going through your mind, your body?

John:
Yeah, definitely. So how the scammed work was, I would put some money into the investment and he would write a check and I would deposit and it would go through properly with some sort of interest. And it happened and it worked for a couple months. I was seeing that it was something that I can see doing for a little bit longer. And then there was at one time after a couple months where the check bounced. And that's where red flags started happening. I would reach out to them, call him and find out like, what's going on? Can you resolve this? Give me another check. Tell me what's going on.

Ray:
It sounds like you had enough like early returns. Were you feeling like, this is legitimate. Like, maybe there's just an honest mistake?

John:
Exactly. So months go by, everything seemed normal. He acted normal. All the investments were working properly. And then bam, after a couple months, something happened.

Ray:
And what was it that happened?

John:
The check bounced. And for me, I was at the bank. And then I checked to see what's going on. I called him up. And he said, “It was an honest mistake. Let me write you another check.”

Ray:
What did you think in that moment? Were you're like, okay, this is a scam or are you still giving him the benefit of the doubt?

John:
Giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Ray:
And how long did you continue to give them the benefit of the doubt?

John:
So it went on for days, if not weeks, and kept coming up with more excuses. And then red flag started appearing because not only was I experiencing it, but so was my girlfriend at that time and other investors.

Ray:
Gotcha. Okay. So you started hearing similar stories that suggested that this wasn't just an honest mistake?

John:
Exactly.

Ray:
Okay.

John:
I really wanted to figure out like who else was in on this and who else also was maybe conned like myself. So I was digging deeper and deeper and trying to realize like, I was not the only one.

Ray:
Got you. Okay. So I assume you then found even more people who are being scammed by him?

John:
Exactly.

Ray:
Okay. So what was the point where you're like, okay, this is a scam?

John:
So I didn't really want to believe it. But it was so unbelievable at the time, like my emotions were like heartbroken. Because for me, I let someone into my life. I put a lot of hard earned money that I saved up for many, many years, if not lifetime, I felt at that time. I trusted him with my portfolio of money. My gut feel was like heartbroken. And then I went into like a depression mode where I was like, couldn't sleep at night, stressed over if ever will I get the money back, and if not, what's going to happen? So I called the police. I did all the formal things I needed to do. Went the police, do the affidavit, let everyone know this is what went on, what would you do? How can you help me? And they basically said, let me investigate. And that's even more painful, because there's now nothing you can do, personally.

It just felt like, wow, this is happening to me. I see this on TV. I read it. But now it's unfolding right beneath my eyes.

Ray:
Yeah. Were there points either early on or after you got more involved, where you had some doubt? Or maybe somebody even said to you, there's something not quite right about this. Were there points like that where you could have changed direction or realized what was really happening, but decided to forge on?

John:
Yeah, definitely. I saw some red flags. But again, him being a con man, he sounded like he was always selling me. He was always saying the right things at the right time, providing me proof. But they weren't really proof. And as the months gone on, I was waiting for my returns, I was waiting for anything back, and it never came to fruition. And therefore I contacted authorities. I pretty much said, "Look, this is the situation. Can you help me?"

Ray:
Gotcha. We've talked a little bit about relationships and how your relationships were affected by your involvement in the Ponzi scheme, and it sounds like also trying to bring in other people. Who were the folks that you brought on board?

John:
Some of my really good friends. I grew up with them. So they trusted me and I would only do something to really help them. And they knew that. But of course, I lost some really good friends along the way.

Ray:
So tell me a little bit more about the moment where you realized you were being defrauded. How did that unfold?

John:
Yeah. So when I realized the money is not going to be ever returned, lost a lot of sleep, stressed, didn't know what to do, over-leveraged, fully maximized all credit cards, and trying to figure out like, what is my next move? What should I be doing? Can I get out of this mess? I have done it before like student debt. So it's like going to school, incurring a lot of school debt, and can I do it faster and quicker? How would it feel doing it at this point in my life? So yeah, like everything was going on in my mind, it was super stressful.

Ray:
When you were involved in the scheme, were you working on other businesses? Did you have other projects? Or was this your sole focus? Did it consume your life?

John:
I had a full time job. So I was still earning a living. I was a sales rep and I was making a decent living, almost six figures. So I was a professional at that time in just earning sales. So I knew I could eventually get out of my debt, it was more about like, how soon would I get out? Because I still got to live. I still got to provide shelter, food, live life. So after talking to a lot of my older colleagues and people I respected, family members, and opened up, explained the situation, I basically said, "Look, I'm going to pay it off slowly. I'm going to eventually have to live through this as one of the biggest mistakes of my life, but also a learning mistake."

I thought I was smart and savvy enough. But I was, again, caught up. I was too caught up in the rush and also the thrill and trying to make more, earn more quicker. A lot of people get caught up like that. And until it hits you in a personal level and yourself, you read about it, you hear about it, and then you really ... When you're in it and you do it on your own, you're like, I can't believe it just happened to me. And then I had to start from scratch. And I felt like someone that shouldn't have, but it happens to anyone. I mean, because you're just in it, you're just so involved that you're blinded, I guess.

Ray:
Could you share some of the things that maybe initially blinded you to what was happening? I know that with a lot of Ponzi schemes, it has so much to do with the persuasive abilities of the person who's orchestrating the scheme, as it does what the opportunity might look like on paper. Were there things that you were kind of mesmerized by that you now see were red flags that you would warn someone else about? Like, what are the things that you would share with someone to properly evaluate whether an opportunity is a good investment or fraud?

John:
If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. And really do your due diligence. Really understand who you're working with, really get to know them and talk to the people that know him or her. So I didn't vet the same way I vet today on any dealings because, again, I was vulnerable. And at the beginning, what happened was, I was getting a return. They showed me. I put deposit, an investment, I got money back with a return. And it felt good for a couple months and good transaction, and then everything went sour. So typically, that's what happens. They make you look good, sound good, feel good. And then when you least expect it, things start going sour, and then you get tied in deeper and deeper, adding more funds to then replace the ones that got ... I guess, it's scripted.

Ray:
Got it. So it sounds like once you realize that something's wrong, you're already in debt, and there's no easy exit door. Is that ...?

John:
Yeah, and you just eat it. You basically just figure out that ... And when you're young or you've never had money, it's a big hit on you. I wanted to use that money for a down payment. And at mid 20s to 30s, in that age range, that was my life savings. To work hard, save a lot, and then have it all wiped out, it's hard for anyone, let alone someone in their 20s or 50s or 60s. I'm fortunate enough to be still young to then have time to recoup it. For people that are in the 50s and 60s that rely strictly on this life savings and get wiped out ... It's tough for them to even continue doing what they're doing because you lose sleep, you're so stressed.

Ray:
Yeah. You touched on something that relates to my next question, which is what, if anything, prevented things from turning out even worse than they did for you? So you mentioned being young, not being in your 50s, where a financial loss like that would have potentially hit much harder. You've also mentioned how ... It sounds like even though some of your relationships were compromised as a result of what happened, you still had some people you could turn to.

John:
So definitely, I had family and really close friends. I've always been an honest person. I've been very open to them about the entire situation. And for me to let them know what really went on, they basically said, how did you get yourself into this situation? Why did you do it? All these things. I knew I was duped. They knew it. It's more like, what do we do now? You eat it and you move on, right? Because we were all young. We were in our 20s and we had our whole life ahead of us. For me, I was a working professional. I was very motivated, I was in sales, and I knew I can still earn enough to pay it off. For a lot of people, that might not be the case.

So I'm very fortunate in that sense, where I was educated enough to make that decision to not focus on like the negatives and really file for bankruptcy beyond the credit bureau, like all that stuff. It’s all about like, now let's put an action plan together. What is the payment structure? How do I pay out all my debt to move ahead so that it's slow and steady? Instead of trying to make that first 100K in two, five years, let's make it 10 years. And it's okay. Life is a journey. So I've learned so much along the way and I carry that on to this company that I'm running right now.

Ray:
Yeah, definitely. You mentioned, obviously, going through depression when this was happening. Were there points or people who reached out to you who saw that you were struggling? Before you told people what was happening that you had been scammed and kind of revealed everything, did people reach out to you and say, hey, what's going on? Like, what's wrong? Are you okay?

John:
I was really sheltered. Like, I was trying to hide everything. I was staying away from everyone. I was not going out like I used to, like playing sports, hanging out with friends. I was just different because mentally I was not stable. [inaudible 00:42:47] very difficult when you're in that situation to disclose a lot of things because it's uncomfortable to disclose it to everyone.

Ray:
Yeah. So did people still try to reach out to you? Or did you just kind of keep your distance?

John:
Yeah. For me, it was more about, yes, there's dialogue, there's phone calls. But I never wanted to meet anyone anymore. [inaudible 00:43:12] super social. I'm like an extrovert. I'd go for coffee, lunch, clubs, sporting events, you name it. I would be the one who initiates it for everyone. And they knew something was up. And it seems like at a time in your life when you maybe could have used the people in your life you were maybe struggling to let them in on what was happening at a time when you could have used them the most.

Yeah, I was embarrassed. Like, I was not just embarrassed, but like ... What was going on my mind was I couldn't believe it just happened to me. And until it does happen to you, it's already too late. I was going through a lot at that time. Just thinking about it, I can't believe it happened.

Ray:
I'm curious how your experience has made you think about the prospect of failing at something again. It sounds like you're cautious about maybe failing in the same way. You're not going to fall for scheme like that again. But how do you look at failure and risk taking in general and in life and business as a result of what you went through?

John:
So I'm not adverse to risk taking with money today. So losing 100K now or at that time, at that age was very dramatic, because it was substantial at that time. I didn't have much to begin with. I was going into debt and I had to pay off the debt. At this stage of my life, depending on where you're at, I'm at a different stage in my life. So spending 100K on marketing or advertising, it was a little bit different. Then, yes, it's a risk, but it's a calculated risk. It's more about knowing and being educated and informed and working with experts and thought leaders in different aspects of business. So knowing what you know and what I know today, it's a lot different and I'm much more calculated in terms of risk.

Ray:
I was also curious about, just going back to some of the relationships, have you been able to repair any of the relationships that may have been damaged? And what did it take to repair those relationships?

John:
Yeah. Like the two friends of mine are my best friends. They were also involved, but they're still my best friends. The one that is not, I mean, he took me to court. He's the one that really put a lot of stress and strain on me, put a lien, like everything to really just get his money back. Yes, I get it. Money is very tight. It's hard for everyone involved, and it's going to live with me. Regret or not, I just have to stay positive and continue pursuing what I want to do right, in life?

Ray:
You mentioned that one of your friends actually sued you and is no longer one of your friends. What was the outcome of that lawsuit, if you're comfortable sharing?

John:
Yeah. So again, I went in because for me, it was a lucrative investment, and I got returns back. But after a couple months, ... I felt like it was a good investment. I gave him all the outline of what was going on, how the business ran. And then it was his decision to invest as well. However, it's because I've brought him in that he also got duped. And because I was a part of it, he came after me knowing that I probably have a better chance to pay him back than the scammer.

Ray:
Yeah. So did you end up having to pay him?

John:
Yes. I had to garnish my wages. And it was a part of it. I think it was $15,000 at that time.

Ray:
Yeah. That sounds like it would have just been like pouring salt in the wound for you or what—

John:
Yeah, definitely. I tried to salvage the relationship, my friendship, more than anything. The money thing, I'm okay with. But as friends, if you know me for 5, 10, 20 years, that's something worth keeping. But I realize money is very painful to lose for a lot of people. As much as human being as I am, I'm very honest, transparent, I want to help others. And that's where I felt like I probably didn't do a good job doing my due diligence. I should have waited years as opposed to months to let other people know about it.

Ray:
Yeah. I can imagine that must have been really tough to feel like you were trying to help a friend and then it just completely 180 degrees and you lose that friendship.

You've touched on this a little bit. But what are the biggest things that you learned from this experience that you bring to your business now and into your relationships and your life as a whole?

John:
I've learned so much, not just from this experience, but like gravitating towards people that are really, really positive and in it for the right reasons. Learning about people, reading people, understanding their roots, their journey, and what drives them. So getting to know real people makes a big difference as opposed to an acquaintance, or someone that knows someone else. Like get to really know them. So I vet a lot. It's the same thing as business. Like it's a long term relationship that I'm getting into. So we need to know as much as I can about clients, about staff, about any vendors and suppliers before I jump into a relationship.

So honesty, transparency, just integrity is a big thing. I'm not as curious as I used to be because I'm not chasing anymore. I'm okay with slow and steady. I'm okay with fact checking, vetting, gut reaction, long-term perspective, versus wanting to get rich quick in weeks or days or months or within a year. That doesn't attract me because I've been burned. I know what it feels like. So I never want anyone to have that experience ever in their life.

Ray:
In your experience, in the way you've described it really emphasizes to me the importance, especially for entrepreneurs, of having community, of having that circle, whether it's friends, family, whether it's your mastermind group, your online, your membership community, whatever it is, we all are smart, intelligent, savvy in different ways. But if you'd had that voice in your ear early on from someone you trust and saying, no, this is not what you think it is, that things may have turned out differently.

John:
Definitely. People that you can trust. I mean, mentors, coaches, community, friends that are really in it for the right reasons in your life, and not just to take advantage of you. So they'll be honest with you, and they want the best for you. So surround yourself with really, really good people and you're going to be better off in life.

Ray:
Awesome. I love it. John, if folks want to be able to find you online, where should they go?

John:
So I have a company called Local SEO Search. You can check it out at www.LocalSEOSearch.ca.

Ray:
Awesome. Well, thanks again for chatting with me today. It's been a pleasure to hear your story and learn what you learned from it, and what other entrepreneurs can hopefully take from it to make better decisions and surround themselves with great people and build the businesses that they want. So thank you again.

John:
Thank you, Ray.

Ray:
Awesome.

Karen:
Ray, that's quite a story. And I love how John was able to work hard toward turning his life around after such a huge loss. And it's so inspiring. I can't imagine losing $100,000 in my 20s. I didn't really have $100,000 to lose when I was in my 20s. But if I had, I think I would have just fallen into depression and stayed in bed all day. So kudos to John for really working hard to turn his life around.

Ray:
Totally, totally. And John would say as much, but he was pretty lucky. A lot of people who get scammed like he did, they aren't in the position that he was in, with a full time job, they're still pretty young. So he definitely came out on the other end in pretty good shape.

Karen:
Yeah.

Ray:
Now, before we go today, I know you have your own failure story to share with us this week, don't you?

Karen:
I do. It's quite embarrassing.

Ray:
Hopefully not something on the scale of a Ponzi scheme, though?

Karen:
No, no. No, not a Ponzi scheme. This is more of a mom fail, failure story, or a parenting fail.

Ray:
I know the fail.

Karen:
Yeah. So it was my daughter's fifth birthday and she really wanted a pinata for her birthday party. So I was like, "Yeah, sure." So I went to Target and bought a really cute little unicorn pinata. And then the day of the party comes along, her little five-year-old friends and the neighbor kids are at our house for the birthday party, and we set up the pinata. And the kids take turns like hitting the pinata, trying to get the candy to come out. Finally, it breaks open and nothing comes out. And ...

Ray:
What?

Karen:
Yeah. I didn't realize that you have to actually buy the candy to put in pinata. Yeah.

Ray:
Oh, man.

Karen:
You would think that I would have thought that something was wrong because the unicorn kind of felt a little light. I was like, well ...

Ray:
You didn't shake it when you got it?

Karen:
No, I didn't shake it.

Ray:
It's like, no, candy's in there.

Karen:
So there were a lot of disappointed little five-year-olds. But then I just offered them cake and they were fine.

Ray:
Okay. Yeah. At least you have that in your back pocket. I mean, you could have maybe just like told them you lost all the candy in an elaborate pyramid scheme.

Karen:
Yeah, right. Yeah.

Ray:
Well, that's it for this episode of Flops. We'll see you next time.

Thanks for listening to Flops. For more information on today’s episode, including links and show notes, please visit SmartPassiveIncome.com/flops.

Special thanks to John Vuong for joining us on today’s episode. Learn more about him and his business, Local SEO Search by visiting LocalSEOSearch.ca.

Your hosts are me, Ray Sylvester and Karen Beatttie.

Flops is a production of SPI Media.

Our executive producer is Matt Gartland and our series producers are David Grabowski and Senior Producer Sara Jane Hess.

Writing by Ray Sylvester and Karen Beattie.

Editing and sound design by Paul Grigoras.

Music by David Grabowski.

See you next time!