AP 1148: Where Are They Now? Emory Wanger from By Land

AP 1148: Where Are They Now: Emory Wanger from By Land

Pat Flynn:
What's up, everybody? Pat Flynn here, and welcome to episode 1148 of AskPat 2.0. And as we're coming into the end of the year here, we always love to do these special "Where Are They Now?" episodes. And today we're speaking with Emory from ByLand.co, B-Y-L-A-N-D.co, as in travel by land, not by sea. He had a hobby website about backpacking, back in episode 1026, so this was about a couple of years ago, and that was titled, How Can I Monetize My Hobby Website? Can It Make Money? And today we're going to get an update from Emory to see how things are going.

And a couple other things have happened in his life, namely, two little human beings that he has made with his wife. And so he and his wife and his two kids are now a part of a journey, and a trail of business and entrepreneurship, and a website, again at ByLand.co. This was a really fun update. It was really good to hear Emory's thoughts about, well, where he's headed now with two little ones. And can't wait to have you hear the update too, so let's not wait any further.

Here he is, Emory Wagner from ByLand.co.

Emory, welcome back to AskPat. Thanks for joining us again, and looking forward to this update, dude. How are things going with you, really quick?

Emory Wanger:
Things are good, man. I think maybe since the last time we spoke, I had two kids.

Pat:
Congratulations.

Emory:
Yeah, man. We just had another one.

Pat:
Man, dude, congrats on that. What is life like as a parent for you now?

Emory:
Dude, it's so good. There's nothing else I care more about. It's totally flip-flopped my outlook on stuff, and it's ... I don't know, it's just great, man. I feel super blessed.

Pat:
I hear you on that one. What has been the most challenging thing for you now as a parent, who also is doing stuff online, and has these goals, and all those things all mixed in one bag?

Emory:
So that big mixed bag, for me it's been rearranging my goals and to have everything flow together. One of the biggest challenges, like the last time we spoke, I do a lot of backpacking, and stuff like that, and outdoor stuff, and I had an experience last year where it totally, the bottom dropped out of my enjoyment bucket. So I went out alone, like I normally would, but I missed my family so much that I was like, "This is not fun. This is no longer fun." So I've had to reframe where my enjoyment comes from with the outdoors, and reconnect in a different way with the outdoors. And so me now, looks more like, instead of going on these epic solo trips on the PCT and stuff like that, I bring my family, and I get so much more enjoyment out of a quarter-mile walk, than I could out of 2,000 miles. You know what I'm saying?

Pat:
Yeah. And this is funny because this is not uncommon to have something happen in a person's life as a business owner, and to just not enjoy what they were once doing before, whether that's having kids, or some other life moment of some kind. And I'm really, really curious, and I want to dive into this transition and what you've done. Because the last time you were on in episode 1026, it was very much, it was By Land, which is the name of your brand. Still named as such?

Emory:
Yeah.

Pat:
It's still By Land. And it was very much about the epic backpacking trips and the resource lists for all that, and now, it's completely different. How did you make this transition? Was it scary, or was it a big announcement, "Hey guys, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm doing this"? Tell me how you transitioned. That's not an easy thing to do.

Emory:
Well, By Land has always been an evolution of a journey, and it started as a journey. It started as a way for me to document that journey for other people to learn from, and share my mistakes and my triumphs and all that different stuff, and share the experience. And sometimes I find myself pigeonholed in these different buckets, and I was finding myself going down ... I didn't really know what I was going down into. I was just chasing these different ideas down. And then I came up, and I was talking with my wife, and I was like, "I just want to help people backpack better, and have a better time in the outdoors, versus whatever paths I was going down, like, "Oh, it's just Emory in the outdoors, and here's an epic adventure. Let me show off to you." Now, it's more like, "No, you show off to me how you enjoy it, and let me help you along that way. Help me reach that goal that you have."

And we can talk about it, but that's what kicked off, I started a backpacking course. And that's what I've been focusing on is just helping people backpack better. On the podcast, I say, "Welcome to Better Backpacking." YouTube channel, "Welcome to Better Backpacking." That's my thing. We all do different things, and we all have different styles, but at the base, the foundation of it, it's this outdoor skills, and By Land has been just growing as a journey. And so I've actually just been telling my audience like, "Hey, this is an evolution. This is what's changed for me." And I was very transparent. I shot a little video about that experience I had. I still intend on going alone, I still intend on doing these things, but I needed to reestablish my relationship with the outdoors in a way that made more sense with the changes that had happened in my life. Does that make sense?

Pat:
Right. Yeah, oh, absolutely. And something that brings you joy again because I would imagine that it wasn't bringing you joy anymore, and that now, you are a father, and you're bringing your family along. I'm just curious, I thought it was potentially going to be a, "Hey, now we're a family backpacking business, versus go solo," but it doesn't seem like it's like that. It's like, "Hey, this is where I'm at in life now. You can come here with me here, or check out my other stuff here." And it's just like, "Wherever you're at, I'm here to help you get better at it, whatever your goals are."

Emory:
Yeah. It's a mix of everything. And it sounds confusing, but at the same time, I think a lot of families struggle getting outdoors, a lot of people struggle being alone in the outdoors. A lot of people struggle learning a new skill set. And these are all part of my journey that I'm trying to share with other people and say, "Hey, I get it. I understand. I've been there with you. I've been in that spot where I'm like, "How the heck am I supposed to take this baby backpacking?'" But we did it. We hiked three miles in, three miles out, stayed overnight with a nine month old baby and a couple of dogs, and we survived.

And I was like, "Holy cow, we can do this. Other people can do this." And that one experience inspired others to even just go on a hike. A buddy of mine was like, "There's no reason why I can't go camping with my baby." I was like, "Yeah, dude. There's no reason why you can't go camping with your baby. Just be smart, and baby steps along." So yeah, it's a journey, man. The whole thing, it's a bunch of different things. But at the core of it, the whole thing is, By Land is about backpacking. That's what I'm focusing on. That's the umbrella.

Pat:
Right. I love that. I want to learn more about your course. When did the course come into play? What gave you the idea? How did you get started with it?

Emory:
I love coaching people. I love educating people. I've always just been attracted to that. And I had all this knowledge, and I wanted a place to put it. And so I was like, "You know what? People are doing these courses. Why don't I just give that a shot?" And so to be honest with you, it took me a very long time. I wanted to do it the right way. It took me a year and a half. And I know that might sound like a long time, but I did the entire thing myself. I did the research leading up to it as what I wanted to put into it, and then I wrote all the content I had to have. There's over 60 videos, tiny videos, short videos in this course. So 60 videos, I had to come up with content, had to be organized. I learned so much. I did the editing, but I wanted to do it myself because I wanted to learn the process as a jumping off point, and I'm super proud of it.

And it basically came out of me being like, "What am I going to do? How can I turn this into a business and maybe teaching backpacking to those that want to reduce the learning curve, jumpstart their enjoyment, and they're in that spot?" There's a certain segment of people, probably mid twenties to early thirties, mid thirties, maybe even forties that are like, "I don't have the time to spend hiking 2000 miles on the PCT, or going every single weekend. I want to just go and have a good time, but I don't want to have the misery that goes along with it," that can often happen when you don't know what you're doing." So yeah, it's comprehensive, from foundational stuff, to the advanced stuff. And the advanced backpacking skills are not that advanced. They're just things that you end up learning down the road.

Pat:
That's so cool. When did the course launch?

Emory:
It launched the end of the summer, which is a bit of a bummer. I'd planned on having it in the spring, but —

Pat:
A pre-summer.

Emory:
A pre-summer, yeah. My goal was March, but COVID and everything else. And I'm like, "You know what? It'll launch when it launches." Have goals, learn to adjust. I think I put it out there in September, which is definitely the tail end of backpacking season, but it was good for me, and it was a big load off, and I've just relaxed ever since.

Pat:
Nice. How's it been going for you? And how did you market it?

Emory:
Well, so that's where I definitely needed to spend a little more time. I spent so much time on this course, so many mornings, and evenings, and moments of stress trying to figure this whole thing out that when I was done I felt like I just needed to get it off my plate. And looking back now, I knew what I was not doing right, but part of it was like, "You just need to get this first push out of the way. You need to get you out of the way, you need to get this first one out of the way, and you can always redo the launch, and reattack." I listened to a lot of different podcasts, like yourself, about like, "Hey, there's going to be a first one. Let it happen." And I knew, I was like, "There's a right and wrong way to do this, but I just need to get this done." So I put it out there, put it out to a few folks, I made some sales, but I've had to take a break from it. I've been focusing on those people to make sure they have the right experience that I want them to have.

And I figure ... three people bought it. It's not a huge number. What's strange is that I had a hundred and almost sixty people on a waiting list, and only three of those people purchased it, which is strange to me. But maybe they're just in a different place now, or maybe the price was not what they expected it to be. I originally sold it — I had it listed for $300, and I since dropped it two, just to play around with stuff. I offered a discount to those original people, but it's been an interesting learning experience. I need to go back and mature it a little bit more, and push some more emails out to people, and expand on it but if I'm being completely honest, I was a little burned out on the thing for a minute and I needed to take a breather.

Pat:
Yeah. Yeah. And thank you for that honesty. And that's a very common thing, and I'm thankful that you mentioned there'll be more launches, you will learn, you'll get better, because a lot of times, especially when we lead into our first launch, we hear about these other people who got six figure launches, and all these systems in place. And I'm just so thankful that you ... how we should all do, is like, "Okay. Do as best as you can with the energy that you have and put it out there because you'll do another one and do it better." And we might even consider this first round as beta testers who are going through it, you're ensuring their success. When they have that success, and they start sharing stories with you about how they're backpacking with their families and whatnot, that's going to light you up again, and that's going to remind you why you need to go out and then start letting these other people know.

As far as the people on the wait list, that's a very common thing. You have a lot of people who are like, "Yeah, sure. I'm waiting." There's 500,000 people waiting for the Tesla Cybertruck, but I have no idea if half of them will buy it. We don't know because it's one thing to say like, "I want it." It's another thing to vote with your dollars. But that list is going to be very important because those are people who at one moment in time, were excited about it. And you can utilize them for surveys, we can learn more about who those people are initially, so we can better connect with people later on our sales page. And you might even ask them like, "Why did you not buy this first time around?" And you can get some very clear answers, which the fact that, again, you have that email list is huge. That's a huge asset. Even if people didn't buy, it's still a learning thing. But like I said, the fact that you had people buy in and of itself is huge. There's more people out there like that, so that, hopefully, is encouraging.

Emory:
Yeah. And to be honest with you, I'm so proud of it. I was going through the editing stuff and sometimes I was like, "Wow, I can't even believe I wrote this. I can't believe I put this together." And not to soothe myself on that, but I'm really proud of it. And I've had ... Every single person that's taken the course, I don't know them. They're complete strangers to me, for the most part. They might know what I'm up to, but they have no dog in the fight of making me feel good. They're customers. And they've come back and been like, "Wow, this is really helpful." And to me, even if it's three people, it means the world to me.

Those are three people that are going to go off and use that information. And there's going to be another three people, there's going to be another three people. And then, I forgot to mention, but recently a guy reached out to me who's a personal trainer for trekkers, he's from Australia. And he reached out, and he was like, "Hey." He helped me out with the physical training portion of the course, so that's in there, like physical prep. And he's like, "Hey, can I partner with you to buy a batch of your courses to give to my students?" as an upsale for him. And I was like, "Yes, you can."

Pat:
Dude, that's so cool. This is primed and ready for much more reach. And the fact that you're just taking a little break from it and whatever, you're going to come back even stronger. And just want to say, I'm proud of you for that because that's not an easy task for sure. And you're taking the exact right approach in terms of the mindset behind it, for sure. So yeah, whenever your next big launch is, let me know. I can give you some pointers, and obviously there's a lot of stuff on the podcast and whatnot where you can go get some more.

Emory:
Can I ask you how that works?

Pat:
Yeah.

Emory:
I keep hearing about these relaunches, and you can always relaunch, but I've only done one, and to be honest with you it was more of a beta launch for the most part.

Pat:
Exactly.

Emory:
So that's out of the way. I've seen it go down one time. I know I can do a million things better, but when people talk about relaunches, what the heck are they talking about? Because I feel like that could be such a mixed bag.

Pat:
It could be. There's many ways to do it, but generally speaking, the idea is, we are going to make a big deal about this course in an event-like manner during these dates, meaning ... Is your course currently available? Like people could buy it right now, or is it still closed? It is. Okay. So a relaunch would be something like, you're going to make a big announcement that there's some special deal and special bonuses in it. Maybe you start to add a ... Maybe you have a special module or a special bonus module that's coming out, or something with some other players in the space, or what have you. You just make a big deal about it. And then you, at some point, will then remove those bonuses. Maybe the discount goes away or whatnot.

I would make it $299, and then during this launch, make it $199 because it's that right now, or what have you. And that way, this is the moment to make a decision. That's the thing. You're helping people go, "Oh, I'm going to miss out on something if I don't make a decision." Because if it's available all the time, and there's no incentive to make a decision now, then anybody can always go, "Well, I'll get it next week. I'll get it next month," versus, "Oh, on this date, the bonuses go away. I have to make a decision one way or another." And then you earn trust, you share some of the results from your previous students in there, this all helps people feel a little bit better about it, and then the cart closes, or that bonus goes away, the discount goes away, and then it's back to evergreen for now until you go about it again.

And then, what's cool is, you can also work with that cohort of students who come in at the same time too. You can have ... maybe the bonus is a couple calls with you with the rest of the group who's all in there, and that becomes a big incentive too. So again, it's just, as a marketer, our job is to help people make decisions on things and reduce confusion for them on the decision making process, so that's what you could do pre-2021, or a spring sale, if you will, leading into next summer, and having a few moments like that during the year can be really interesting. Maybe it's Cyber Monday. I don't know. But that's what relaunching means in a nutshell.

Emory:
Okay. Yeah. And looking back now, I'm like, I wanted to launch it in the spring, but maybe it's best that I did the beta launch in the fall, so I can get ready for spring. Everything happens for a reason. And so I've learned long ago to just go with it, and see what happens, and have goals, but adjust if you need to, so maybe this was for the best. And I think spring's probably the ... People are looking at like, "Oh, I didn't backpack this summer. I should learn." So spring is a really good time for that.

Pat:
Yeah, I think so. And by then you'll have people who have taken this course already, your beta students, if you want to call them that. And on your podcast, in your content, on your blog, highlight their stories, talk about their before, talk about their after, and just naturally, they're going to mention your course, and the course is going to come up naturally. It's just going to be a perfect testimonial that leads into other people going, "Oh, my gosh. I want to do the same thing. I'm just like them. And where can I go get this course?" "Oh, sign up here for the wait list, because on this date, we're going to announce some special things that go along with it, and maybe a giveaway of a backpack," I don't know. You can structure that any which way you want, but I think that's the next big step for you as far as the course is concerned.

Emory:
Undertaking the course was overwhelming. I was like, "I don't even know how I'm going to do this."

Pat:
But you did it.

Emory:
I did it, and I'm proud of it, but then I was like, now the marketing is like, it's just overwhelming. It can be very overwhelming, but also very rewarding. So I'm in the next overwhelming stage.

Pat:
Right, right, right. I think the biggest thing to guide you would be to... And it's so great that you know this course is going to help be helpful for people, but the fact that you're proud of it and confident with it is huge, because a lot of people sell things they're not so sure about. And that's where you start to play that dangerous game of, "Hey, let me sell you this thing, but I'm not sure it's actually helpful." And that's playing in not so great territory. Or you just don't share messages or send emails or talk about your thing in a way that comes across as confident.

And if you're not confident in it, how in the world can you convince somebody else to buy it? So you've already passed step one, which is creating something amazing and are confident in it. Now, you have some beta students to unlock even more confidence. And what the big driver for any marketing should be: "I have a responsibility for people who need this in their life to let them know about it, and to not force them into it, but to just have a conversation, to a point where this course becomes a natural conclusion to that conversation."

Emory:
Sure. I wanted to let you know, I just remembered, I think last time when we spoke, we had talked about, is this the right thing to do? Is backpacking something people would be interested in, and eventually building a business out of it? And you encouraged me to keep moving with that. And I realized after this course, one of the ... I don't know if guilty realizations are a thing in entrepreneurship. One of my main mantras since starting By Land has been breaking down barriers to entry, whatever they might be. Afraid of the cold, afraid of the rain, afraid of animals in the dark, a number of different things. And I had this moment after I launched the course that maybe I was becoming the barrier to someone's entry.

Pat:
Oh, you were putting up a barrier?

Emory:
Yeah, a monetary barrier. And I wrestled with that. I told my wife about it. I was like, "I need to tell you something. I just had a thought." And she was like, "Whoa, that seems really heavy," because it really broke my heart for a minute. And I'm like, "Wow. That's ..."

Pat:
Like you should have given this away for free, potentially, kind of thing?

Emory:
Yeah. Yeah, because backpacking game can give back to you. And I'm like, "Am I preventing people that need backpacking in their life from getting backpacking in their life?"

Pat:
Here's the thing.

Emory:
Yeah?

Pat:
I thought the exact same thing before, too. And this is when I started launching my courses because I had given everything away for free for so long. But then somebody told me, "You know what? These courses, number one, you're not taking anything away from people who are already getting access to your free stuff. You can still help people. You have not put up any barriers. What you're doing is you're providing a container and a space for people to invest in themselves even more." And it sounds like you came to the same conclusion as well, that this is something that's of service to those who want to go deeper, who are willing to invest. In fact, people who do invest in themselves usually have better outcomes because they're a skin in the game. But you're not taking all your free stuff and going, "Hey, guys. Actually, you can't have this anymore, unless you pay." Sometimes it feels that way, but you're just adding on for those who want to go deeper.

Emory:
Yeah. And I had talked to a couple of people about that, and that's essentially what I came back to was, "Hey, you're not taking away from anyone. You're just giving an opportunity for this nice condensed piece of information for people to jump start the journey, and whatever, if they choose to do that, but you can ..." Because people are like, "Well, why would I do that when I can just find it on the internet? I'm like, "You can learn anything you want on the internet. It could take you a very long time to figure it all out"

Pat:
Exactly. And plus, a little bit more attention from you and perhaps other students in the community as well, and that's what they're paying for too. So I'm glad you came to that same conclusion because I was going to work really hard to try and make you think that if you didn't already, so that's good. Emory, this has been such a cool update, and I'm just so proud of you for what you've built and this transition, and how you've injected your family into this, in a way where you can bring joy back to being outside, and enjoying the earth in the way that you initially did before, when you were just you.

And I love that you've been sharing this and have been building community and sharing this with your crowd at the same time. And what advice would you give to somebody who is in that moment in their business right now, where they are also going through a life transition? And this is many people now, during the pandemic, of course, they're trying to figure out where they should be going, and are a little bit confused right now. Based on your experience, having walked through this trail already, if you will, what can you offer for them?

Emory:
Man, I think it just comes down to really honing in on your values. What do you value the most? And what brings you happiness? I was telling my wife, I'm like, "My family, my happiness, and then backpacking, those are my top three things. And if I can fit those things into what I'm doing, and what I want to make money out eventually one day, then great." But I think it just comes back to your value structure, reassessing your value structure because ... And I will say, I believe it changes as you grow up. Always changes. So the values that I had as a young kid are different than what they are now.

And so if you're trying to implement old values on a new system, or vice versa, or whatever you want to look at that, I think you're going to run into a lot of rub. So I think trying to move with the wind instead of going against it, maybe the sailors out there know this, but you're going with the wind, and manipulate the wind to your own advantage. So that's how I'm looking at it now, and being honest with myself about where I'm at and what I'm doing. So I don't know if that answers the question, but that's how I'm adjusting to changes.

Pat:
It does. And that's absolutely huge, and I think people are going through those moments right now, and that was very profound. So Emory, thank you so much. One more time, where can people go to follow your journey on your trail?

Emory:
ByLand.co is the website. I have a podcast, the By Land podcast is on there, and then the course is on there as well. So it'll bring you to ... I'm using Teachable, so you'll be brought over to Teachable if you decide to go that way, so.

Pat:
Sweet. And By Land, B-Y L-A-N-D.

Emory:
Correct. Yep.

Pat:
Cool. Emory, this was amazing. Thank you so much for your time again, and good luck to you, and keep going. You're awesome.

Emory:
Thanks, man. Appreciate it.

Pat:
All right. I hope you enjoyed that update from Emory. Again, you can find his website, and podcast, and all the good things at ByLand.co. Emory, thank you so much, and congrats on the little ones again, and appreciate you for coming on and being vulnerable with us and sharing exactly how things are going and what is coming up. I'm really excited for you in the course and everything. So well done, my friend. I appreciate you.

And for those of you listening, at home, in the car, with the dogs, at the gym, wherever, I appreciate you too. It means the world to me that you spend time here on the show, and I'm here in my office right now, I'm looking around, and there's literally nobody here, obviously, because I can't have anybody in the room with me when I'm recording these episodes, but I know you're there on the other end eventually, and I'm so grateful for that.

So thank you so much. If you happen to have a chance to leave a review for the show on AskPat, and that's going to be on Apple Podcast primarily, if possible, that would be amazing. And I look forward to serving you with more episodes, not just through the end of the year here, but into 2021. We're going to make 2021 awesome. 2020 was pretty rough, obviously. Hopefully, we all have our heads above water, and we're supporting each other. And thank you to those of you who have joined the community over at SmartPassiveIncome.com/pro, and I'm looking forward to working with you guys, and everybody else here into 2021. No matter how that looks, I'm here to serve, and I appreciate you for allowing me to do so.

So cheers, thank you so much, and hit that subscribe button if you haven't already, and take care. We'll see you the next one. Peace out. Team Flynn for the win.