AP 1218: How Do I Authentically Leverage My Guests to Grow My Podcast?

AP 1218: How Do I Authentically Leverage My Guests to Grow My Podcast?

Pat Flynn: What's up everybody? Pat Flynn here. Welcome to episode 1,218 of AskPat 2.0. You're about to listen to a coaching call between myself and an entrepreneur, just like you. And today we're talking with Ling Yah Wong, who is the host of So This is My Why.

Pat Flynn: This is actually a podcast that has some really amazing guests. I mean, big time celebrities on the show. We're going to talk about them in a little bit. But Ling approached me today with a question and conversation about, "Well, how do I best leverage these big names that are coming on my show?"

Pat Flynn: And you might have a big guest that comes on your show or on your YouTube channel, or that you might write about on your blog at some point. And the trick is doing it authentically. I mean, there is a right way to do things and there's a wrong way to do things of course.

Pat Flynn: And Ling wants to know how to do this in the right way, where not only can we potentially use the guest to be able to grow the show in a way where maybe they share it, but to do it in a way that is organic, and it makes sense, and is a win for everybody. But also, how do we actually use those names to grow our show further by name dropping and those kinds of things? How do we hype up our podcast episodes knowing that these guests are coming and doing it again authentically?

Pat Flynn: So that's what we're going to talk about today because doing authentic things is exactly what we want to do, especially as we're are growing where that's often where people fall off. So here she is Ling Yah Wong, who you can find hosting the podcast So This is My Why.

Pat Flynn: Hey, Ling, welcome to AskPat 2.0. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Ling Yah Wong: Oh, thank you so much for having me Pat.

Pat Flynn: Tell me about yourself and what you do. And we'll go from there.

Ling Yah Wong: I'm actually a lawyer. I'm based in Malaysia. But I just happen to run this podcast So This My Why on the side. And it's basically where I interview inspiring people about how they found their why and how they turn it into reality. So it's a wide range of people. It's Olympians. It's Michelin Star chefs. It's entrepreneurs like Austin Allred of Lambda School. It's VCs, it's pretty much anyone, everyone. And I've got a general that I'm interviewing this Saturday. So very wide range.

Pat Flynn: What the name of the show again?

Ling Yah Wong: So This Is My Why.

Pat Flynn: This Is My Why. How does a lawyer get an idea to start a podcast about something that is not about being a lawyer?

Ling Yah Wong: Well, I suppose because I fell into law because people were telling me if you like English, you should just do law. And I just never questioned that. And I did it for almost a decade and I thought, wait a minute, is this actually my purpose in life? Maybe there's something else up there as opposed to that quarter life crisis.

Ling Yah Wong: And that's the point where I discovered your podcast and you were talking about all these inspiring people crafting their own path. And I thought maybe I should start doing it. And somehow that narrative changed from maybe I should start a podcast to I need to start a podcast. And what better thing to do than finding my why?

Pat Flynn: Amazing. And what has been your favorite interview that you've done so far?

Ling Yah Wong: My favorite is probably Nick Bernstein. He's James Corden's boss. And the reason he's my favorite is because after I did a three hour interview with him, which was exceptionally long-

Pat Flynn: Wow.

Ling Yah Wong: ... he then went on The Late Late Show with James Corden the following Monday when James was asking, "So what did you guys do last weekend?" He said, "I did this three hour interview with this Malaysian." And so then James and everyone just went, "Oh, you better hope this girl doesn't release your podcast before we break for summer because that's two episodes off the back of it," And they really talked about it for two episodes and more.

Pat Flynn: Wow.

Ling Yah Wong: So it was amazing.

Pat Flynn: That's so cool. That's so amazing.

Ling Yah Wong: Yeah.

Pat Flynn: So tell me about the maybe challenges that you're having right now. What can I help you with? What's on your mind?

Ling Yah Wong: Yeah, so the challenge is basically I've had big guests like Nick and other people as well who are quite well known, like Guy Kawasaki or Esther Wojicicki, who's Susan Wojicicki's mother, and I've realized, I think I've never been able to leverage on these big name guests.

Ling Yah Wong: And I know it's not just about the number of social media followings, but at the same time, I feel as though there must be something more. Because I have upcoming guests who are actually pretty big. And I would love to know if there is some kind of strategy I can come up with to make sure I fully optimize the fact that I have these people on.

Pat Flynn: Ah, great question. Before we get into that, I'm sure the audience is curious, how are you landing or even reaching out to these big guests?

Ling Yah Wong: I just cold email them. I mean, I would say 99 percent.

Pat Flynn: Cold email?

Ling Yah Wong: Yes.

Pat Flynn: And it's working?

Ling Yah Wong: It's really honestly working. Cold email inaudible.

Pat Flynn: What are you saying in these emails? It must be some magic copywriting or something. What's your secret?

Ling Yah Wong: I think it must be because there is always a section in there, right, where I say, "These are the kind of things I would like to talk about." And it's not just the kind of things you can find on Wikipedia. I actually spend quite a bit of time researching it. And I remember there was one person, he's the co-founder of Udemy, and he's going to come on. And he specifically wrote back to me and he said, "It's so rare to get such a thoughtful cold email pitch, and I would love to be on your podcast." So I think that really helps so much.

Pat Flynn: I mean, that is a secret it seems. It's doing the research. And I like that. Because I get pitches all the time to have me come on people's shows and it true it's the ones that are different. The ones that you can tell the person knows about you and knows what you've done before and wants to bring something different that'll stand out and get me to say yes often. So I appreciate you sharing that insight.

Pat Flynn: So the question being, okay, we have big guests coming on your podcast, how do we best leverage that? How do we make the most of it? Right? And there's different parts of the spectrum of that, right?

Pat Flynn: Maybe on the more negative or bad side it's like, how do we use these names to make as much money as possible, right? That's what maybe leverage might mean to some people versus what I'm imagining, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, you're wondering how do we reach more people? How do we get more people to listen to these podcasts? Tell me where on the spectrum you are as far as, what does leverage mean to you?

Ling Yah Wong: So leverage at this point is definitely getting more guests and it's because I feel as though you need to have the guests in order to even monetize. So I would love to monetize, but I think I'm at that point where I still just want to increase that reach so that I'm worthwhile to people who might want to sponsor advertise on the podcast.

Pat Flynn: Awesome. So you can have the best of both worlds actually if it were to work out.

Pat Flynn: So there's a few things that you can do. The benefit of having amazing guests is that people can just immediately with a name get very excited about the podcast. And if it's your listeners, you can tell them about the guests that are coming in the future so they can get excited about it.

Pat Flynn: It's almost like a concert. "Hey, on stage next week we have so and so. And we talk about this and this, and you're not going to want to miss it." And that name alone plus the topics of interest could combine for a lot of chatter and conversation and sharing and word of mouth even before the podcast episode comes out. Are you doing a lot of like pre-release marketing for upcoming episodes?

Ling Yah Wong: I do those little snippets on IG Stories and I'll say, "Hey, guess what? This guest is coming and these are the main tips. And do you have any questions you want me to ask them?" I also have a newsletter and I just put these names up and I say, "If you have any questions, let me know." But I would say that's pretty much it.

Ling Yah Wong: And the main promo comes after the interview's done. And so the entire week I will be releasing one to two minutes worth of snippets, and it's video as well, across all social media platforms to promote,

Pat Flynn: Okay. That's actually not too bad as a lot of people don't do any pre-marketing and then they go out and then they just focus on... Well actually, most people just put a podcast out and just kind of cross their fingers and hope. So it sounds like you're doing a lot to promote the episodes that are coming out.

Pat Flynn: Number two, and this is a big lesson. It's just keep going. Right? You might not be yet at that inflection point where something happens and then boom, it just skyrockets.

Pat Flynn: I remember when Lewis Howes from The School of Greatness, he has a lot of big guests on his podcast as well, and he started out, and it wasn't like a super slow start, but it wasn't fast either, but he just kept going and he stayed consistent. And then over time with the bigger guests that have been coming on, it just started to stack on each other.

Pat Flynn: And then all of a sudden, like even in the last two years, and he's been doing this for a while, it just kind of skyrocketed and exploded. And he has his own studio now, and he's got even bigger guests coming on. And there's a lot more money coming in. And it's because he's just continued to lean into the value that he's able to provide.

Pat Flynn: He's creating a lot of experiences on top of the podcast. He had his event in Ohio, and he has other ways to get in contact with him. And I'm not sure if he does this, but I know some podcasts who even allow for some exclusive content for more fans or maybe patrons, if you will. So there's a lot of ways to even beyond the podcast, create an experience that get people to talk about the podcast more and share it more.

Pat Flynn: But again, the second lesson here is just keep going, keep staying consistent, and keep trying to have fun with it because that's what will allow you to get through even the tough parts. And I'm sure the conversations are amazing, right? Like they're probably really inspiring and then get you excited about the next one, right?

Ling Yah Wong: Well, they definitely inspire me. I hope it inspires other people for sure.

Pat Flynn: So you're still encouraged to keep going. You're still going to stay consistent, right?

Ling Yah Wong: Yeah.

Pat Flynn: Okay, good. The third thing is... And you might be great at this because you're already great at sending these emails and reaching out. But as far as like getting other guests to come on the show, using the clout of the names that you've had prior to mention, "hey, you will be in the likes of this person and this person." When you mention a Michelin chef, that immediately perks people's minds up and goes, "Wow. Okay, this podcast is different. And this person is able to reach these people who other people probably wouldn't normally have been able to reach."

Pat Flynn: This is how John Lee Dumas got really famous in the podcasting space because he had guests on and he would name drop and have other bigger guests come on. And through that he himself gained authority through that association.

Pat Flynn: When you start to see a person's catalog and you start to go, "Wow, look at the caliber of guests that are on here," you immediately can paint a picture about the host and then the quality of the show from that. And again, that will continue to increase over time. But how much are you using your back catalog to hopefully perhaps entice those who are coming or those who you want to reach out to?

Ling Yah Wong: Always. So I have a particular format in my email with an introduction, why I'm writing to you, this is what we're going to talk about, and one whole section on these are the past guests. So I always change it depending on who I'm pitching to. So if it's a VC person then it's all startups. If it's inaudible artists, then it's more, Hollywood, some actresses and all these kind of people they would likely recognize.

Ling Yah Wong: So I have had one guest come on and say, "The reason I said yes is because I did check you out and I also liked the caliber of your guests. So I felt I would be safe in your hands."

Pat Flynn: Perfect. Okay. So you already have that nailed down. I can tell there's a lot of your lawyer experience inside of your emails and in your arguments, if you want to call it that, which is really fantastic. So where else are you feeling that you might be lackluster as far as leverage is concerned? Because you are hitting all the notes that are usual. Are there any ideas that you've had that maybe you were reluctant about or scared about maybe trying?

Ling Yah Wong: It's not so much trying. It's more the question of, how do I get people to actually engage? Because it's one thing to have numbers, right? And another to actually have people respond. So I have people from my Instagram when I ask, "Can you give me, say, questions I could ask the guest?" or when I send a newsletter and I say, "Hey, I would love to get guests that you would be interested in listening to," I don't actually get a response. And I don't know how to encourage that.

Pat Flynn: I see. Okay. So we want engagement from the audience.

Ling Yah Wong: Yeah.

Pat Flynn: Right. We're not having a problem with getting bigger guests on the show. We want to have the audience engaged. Well, number one from podcasts specifically, if you look at all the platforms, podcast, YouTube, blog, et cetera, podcast is the one that has the least amount of engagement just in general, right? So just keep that expectation in mind.

Pat Flynn: And when we think about that, it's because imagine where a person's listening. They're listening at the gym or in the car, or maybe even they've downloaded your episode ahead of time and they're on travel listening to it. And so they've don't actually have the capability right then and there while listening, which is the point at which you want them to engage, because that's when they're the most warm, right? They're listening.

Pat Flynn: And then you have a call to action in your episodes and then they have to wait till they land or till they get home. And then they might forget about it or whatnot. So that is going to be the challenge.

Pat Flynn: And the biggest way that many people are communicating with their audiences is through... There's two means. Number one is email. And it sounds like you have an email list already, which is great. Those are going to be your higher level fans, the most engaged people. And through one-to-one connections you're perhaps able to get a lot more response because it feels a little bit more private.

Pat Flynn: A lot of times people don't like to respond. Some people will, but many people don't respond to questions from a host or from an authority publicly because they don't want to look stupid or they don't want to be first or they don't want to have that be out there.

Pat Flynn: Maybe they have a question in that reflects on who they are and they don't want that necessarily to be out there for everybody, right? Like, "Hey, I suffer from depression. I think this person would be a great guest." Well, they're not going to say that out loud, but they might say that privately to a host that they trust. And so that's where email can come in.

Pat Flynn: And I think that one way to help engagement is for you to take the lead. So for example, if you are asking people to talk about the topics that they're interested in perhaps covering on the show and perhaps guests that align with that, if you can take the lead first and say, ""Well, here are some of the topics that I want to have covered on the show. And I'm not sure which guests would be proper, but here are the topics. Because in my..."

Pat Flynn: And you start to get vulnerable a little bit. Tell a little bit of a story. "In my life this happened, and I didn't know where to go. And I haven't really found a mentor or somebody to help me with that. Do any of you know somebody who can help or have any guests in mind for that?"

Pat Flynn: And that way, because you open up, they're going to open up a little bit more too, right? They almost kind of trust you even more now because you've opened up. And then they're going to probably want to help you too. And do it from a place of helping you, not, "Oh, I'm trying to help fill in the back catalog for this podcast." It's "Oh, I want to help. I want to help Ling out," right?

Pat Flynn: And that's where you can get a lot more engagement, when you position the ask in a story versus just, "Hey everybody, who do you want to have on the show?" It's, "Hey,,, Charles," or "Hey Jimmy," or, "Hey Susan, this is what I went through. Do you have any ideas on who might be able to come on and help ,or is there anybody in your life that you think might be inspiring to bring on? Does that make sense as far as like the positioning of it?

Ling Yah Wong: Yeah. So it sounds like maybe using an email, but directing it personally to a person would encourage a response.

Pat Flynn: Exactly.

Ling Yah Wong: Yeah.

Pat Flynn: Exactly. So like, "Hey," name versus like, "Hey, everybody, I'm looking for guests for the show." It feels more personal, and it feels like a better reason to reply, right? In that case. And you don't need even a huge percentage of those people to reply to provide a lot of value to the show and the future of it.

Pat Flynn: The other way that a lot of podcasters specifically are communicating with their audiences to bring people into a community of some kind... And traditionally it's been like a Facebook group because that's easy and that's where everybody was. But a lot of people aren't really so jazzed about Facebook groups right now, although they still work. I know a lot of people who are creating Circle communities, free ones that people can get access to, or even paid ones.

Pat Flynn: And the paid ones are interesting because those people like Patreon are supporting you in your work, but they also get access to you that others wouldn't. And because they're paying and because they're in this community, and even if they're not paying, they still have to sort of take the time to get into this community. You sort of filter the people out who you may not even be interested in communicating.

Pat Flynn: You know that the people who are in that community are going to be communicative and not only will they have a little bit of access to you and maybe some insider scoop on what's coming and kind of things like that, maybe they have the ability to influence some of the questions that are asked, but they're also getting to find each other. And that's where it's not just the content. It's now the community that people are coming in for. And that's where engagement happens.

Pat Flynn: Actually, a lot of engagement on our side doesn't happen because we pose questions. It happens because other people are posing questions and they want to help each other out too. I think that makes sense.

Ling Yah Wong: Yeah. How do you get people to start posting their questions? Because I do have a Facebook group. There are like 200, 300 people and they don't tend to respond. And I think it's one of those things where you need to get people used to actually posting questions and then everyone will start jumping, but I haven't found that lubricant to get it started.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, you have to be a little bit structured, if you will, in the Facebook group. If it's just kind of an open forum, there's not enough reason to post or even if a question's asked, it's like, "Well... I'm busy or I'll answer that later or it's not that important right now."

Pat Flynn: What we do in a lot of Facebook groups is we have like, at least in the groups that I'm in, it's like Shout Out Saturday. So, "Hey, it's Saturday. This is your day to tell me about your business and your thing." And then it gives them an opportunity to share what they have going on. And it's not even an ask. It's a, I want you to show off what you're doing.

Pat Flynn: And so that can begin to start training a community to post, and see what it's like, and see that it's not scary, and get used to that. So that later when you do have an ask, not only are they used to doing that, but also Facebook is used to pushing that out, right? The algorithm starts to help because they've seen that they've participated and they've pushed something out already that they're going to be more likely to see your message later.

Pat Flynn: So a part of it is they're just not seeing the ask, right? Because it's on Facebook and there's an algorithm and some people are seeing it and some people are not. But if you can start encouraging people to share certain things or you have questions that aren't necessarily an ask where people have to think, but maybe there's an answer maybe based on certain episodes.

Pat Flynn: You can say, "Hey, our guest, our Michelin chef, grew up in one of these three places. If you've listened to the episode, you know which one it is. Which one is it?" And then you can kind of quiz them and play a game. And it's just, again, A, B or C. It's a very quick answer. You either know the answer or you don't. And again, that helps with the algorithm.

Pat Flynn: So trying different ways to communicate versus just you asking for things all the time. How about some fun and some engagement, or even you asking them to share something versus just kind of what's coming up next on the show?

Ling Yah Wong: Would you say that Facebook is still a popular place for this kind of engagement? Because you mention that it's not that popular anymore, right? But at the same time, Instagram probably has the most number of people, but the conversion rate to podcast listeners is not that great as well. So I'm wondering what your thoughts are.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because honestly, first of all, to your first question, Facebook is still popular. It is still worthwhile, if you can build the community and the sort of momentum there. I think that it is based on how you utilize it, not just the platform itself, right? So you could build a community anywhere, and if there's value there, people will show up. Even if they have to climb a mountain to get there, if it's worth it, they'll do it.

Pat Flynn: So Facebook? I think just a lot of people don't want to be on Facebook or just aren't really enjoying the company anymore. And so, just in general, some people are pushing away from that. So that's really interesting. But what was your second part of the question?

Ling Yah Wong: Would say Instagram be a great place? People tend to say that the conversion rate to podcast listeners is quite low for a place like Instagram.

Pat Flynn: Thank you. So is Instagram a great place for engagement and communication? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Especially if that's a main focus of yours. I mean, you can tell, I like Facebook [editor's note: Pat means Instagram] because it's just a more positive place to be generally versus Facebook. And I think that you can also have some interesting one-on-one conversations with people and do some story surveys where you ask a question and multiple choice questions there.

Pat Flynn: I mean you can do a lot of the stuff that we just talked about, but on Instagram where people are indeed on for longer and they're scrolling and they're trying to find information that's interesting. So I definitely think it can happen there. But again, I think a lot of the same principles as what I said before do apply.

Pat Flynn: The conversion rates to podcasts are low anywhere outside of just general podcast apps. And people aren't on Instagram to go find new podcasts. They're on Instagram to find their people and get inspired and get motivated.

Pat Flynn: So I think we have to take a different approach with, well, what does success on Instagram for a podcaster look like? Is success taking people from Instagram, finding new people there, and then putting them onto the podcast? That's a very difficult ask. First of all, you have to get in front of the right people. You have to then interrupt them and get them, encourage them, to open up a podcast app, and then get them to listen. I mean, that's a lot of friction to get there.

Pat Flynn: And I was once told, success for a podcaster on a platform like Instagram is not getting more downloads. It's taking the information that you've collected on your podcast and sharing it on that platform and building your community there. Because some people, they only live on Instagram, and that's where they're only going to find you and hear about you.

Pat Flynn: And if you can provide value there, you now have like, it almost feels like a second podcast, but it's run through Instagram. And it's just using the same information, but that's for the Instagram people. And if some of them come onto your podcast and listen in full, cool, that's a bonus, but you are providing value to the people who only live on Instagram in the short format that it allows.

Pat Flynn: And then some people who listen to your podcast will come over there and engage and find other people like them too, who like the same information who are following you and are interested in these amazing celebrities. And some people there will like the short form, and some people are podcast listeners on the whole as well.

Pat Flynn: But when you treat Instagram separate from your podcast, not as an engine to build your podcast, but as that's the community and that's where it lives, then it starts to feel a little better because success is not podcast downloads. It's activation of the people who listen.

Pat Flynn: Those are great questions by the way. Thank you. I think that's very relevant because a lot of the listeners, not just for podcasters, but the way that we treat Instagram, the way that we define success on the platform, for a while for me it was like, "Oh, well, I'm sharing these snippets on Instagram, but nobody's downloading the podcast. And I have to realize that's okay, because that's not why I'm doing it anymore. I'm doing it to encourage those who are there on Instagram, who are only going to be on Instagram and still be able to reach them despite them not coming on to the larger podcast, right?

Ling Yah Wong: Do you think that the fact, and this is something that a lot of friends were telling me, the fact that you show so much of your personality has allowed your podcast to grow so much? Because I love your intros and it's always a little snippet about yourself that's always slightly different.

Ling Yah Wong: And it's not something that I do. I just kind of say very briefly, "I'm the host and producer," and I jump straight to the guest because I think this is all about the guest. I already have so long with them. I don't want to take even more time, but I wonder if I need to start thinking more about sharing who I am as a person.

Pat Flynn: It's always a thing that I encourage people to do. I mean, you don't have to share everything. You don't have to talk about what you had for breakfast every morning. I mean, I think it's important to know that you still want people to go and get what they came for. But at the same time, while doing that, it they can get to know you, the host, they're going to be that much more connected to you.

Pat Flynn: And of course, I talk about this in my book Superfans. When you become personable, when you become somebody who is a human, another human will now be able to connect with you. If you're just playing host, you could probably code a robot to do the same job as you, right? And that's what allows you to stand out from others as well.

Pat Flynn: And I think that your personality doesn't have to be as purposeful, like what I do in my podcast as far as, "Okay, in the first 10 seconds, I'm going to share a fun little fact about me." That is working, and it has worked. And it's been really amazing. People come up to me and they remember certain ones that they can connect with.

Pat Flynn: But you can just be you and step into yourself, even during the interview, and you could share bits and pieces of yourself, or maybe at the end of the interview, you have a little story to share about something personal that happened and that's fine too. You just do it in the way that you feel comfortable and that matches you because your vibe is going to attract your tribe. But if you're just again, a robot who's asking questions, then anybody could replace that. And you are uniquely you. Nobody's like you, and you might as well use that to your advantage.

Ling Yah Wong: And I wanted to jump back to the first thing that you mentioned at the start. You asked if I did anything before the release of the interview. And I wonder, because I have big guests coming up., if you think that's really important and I should start thinking about that.

Pat Flynn: So you'd mentioned James Corden, right? Does he, when he has his late show, tell you who the guest is right when they come out or are they telling you who the guest is ahead of time?

Ling Yah Wong: It really depends. I remember for BTS they told everyone weeks in advance.

Pat Flynn: Of course. Because why? Because they know that all the BTS fans are going to show up because they're going to want to know what goes on. And, of course, he's not sharing the whole segment, but he's sharing who the guest is and probably snippets, like you said. I think it's important.

Pat Flynn: I think every once in a while, a surprise like out of nowhere could be really nice. But think about it. You are behind a microphone, just like a musician. And if you're a musician, whether it's your music or you're featuring somebody else's music, I mean, what does a musician do when they have a concert? They sell tickets ahead of time and they get people excited about it. And they might have a story to tell behind it.

Pat Flynn: And then it all piles up and leads up to this big climax that is the interview or the show or the music. And it just is this huge ride, right? When you buy a ticket to an event, the event starts right there because a person's already thinking about their favorite song or the band. And they're getting ready for it. And they're talking to their friends about it.

Pat Flynn: That's the kind of feeling that a podcaster could potentially offer their listener as well. And because you have the benefit and luxury of having these big names on, you could leverage that. And you don't have to feel bad about that too, because A, these celebrities probably have that kind of stuff happen all the time, but B, you're positioning them to be even more amazing. You are giving your audience even more reason to come and listen to that person who spent that time with you.

Pat Flynn: So it would almost be a disservice if you want to think about it that way to not hype it up and get people excited and get people encouraged to listen. And you know, yes, if you just say a name, some people automatically are going to come because of the name, but if you tell a story around it or if you hype it up or talk about topics that are important to people ahead of time, it gets people who may not even be fans of that person to want to come and show up too. So I do think that you could do maybe little bit more and lean into that more.

Ling Yah Wong: Have you found a particular way to encourage your guests to share their content? Because, I mean, lots of people say, "Oh, you should ask content that the guests themselves are excited about and want everyone to know." And I've noticed that, that works, but that doesn't always work. But when guests will accept say a collaboration on Instagram, that really boosts engagement, but other people just don't no matter what you do.

Pat Flynn: Lewis Howes talked about this on a podcast earlier this year where he had, I think, Kevin Hart on the show, big name, big comedian, like biggest comedian in the world that some might argue right now. And he had him on the show, and it like did nothing for growth for his show. And he's so busy and he's sharing all these things about his movies. He just doesn't have time to fit in another promo for a podcast episode, even a big one like Lewis's, and that's okay.

Pat Flynn: Again, people listen in the back catalog, and they will see that. And that encourages engagement, that encourages authority, and it makes you look great. And it becomes just another podcast for people to listen to. But at the same time, there might be that one podcast guest who just falls in love with you and the show and the format and wants to talk about it so much. And they will.

Pat Flynn: And I think that you just have to realize that some people are going to share it and some people won't. And honestly, I think that if you approach it as, "I'm going to make this conversation so incredible that this person can't help but want to share it, even if they're a big star, because it's..." And if you approach that, some of them will... I don't even want to say bite because it's not bait. I mean, that's what you want to have, right? That's what you want to have happen.

Pat Flynn: So I would just say lean into making it something memorable and share-worthy for them. And maybe you get a person to... Like have you ever seen a guy named Sean? He hosts a... It's not a podcast, but it's a show on YouTube called Hot Ones where they're eating chicken wings-

Ling Yah Wong: Oh yeah.

Pat Flynn: ... add they get hotter and hotter?

Ling Yah Wong: Yes.

Pat Flynn: One of the best interviewers because he asks his questions and there are celebrities. I would pull a lot of inspiration from him because he does his research. But beyond that every single time or almost every single time I hear the guest tell him, "Wow, I've never been asked that before. That's amazing," or "This is the most fun interview I've ever had." And those celebrities share it.

Pat Flynn: And there is the sort of gimmick, if you will, of hot wings, and it's kind of funny, but they always comment on how great the interview is, even outside of the wings. And they're likely more encouraged to share it. So if you lean into that as well, I think that could do you some good.

Ling Yah Wong: I think it's quite interesting because when I first started, I used to edit all those parts out where the guests would say, "Oh, you did amazing. You did a lot of research." And later then I started putting it in. Then I realized that the listeners loved it too. And they latched onto that.

Pat Flynn: Yeah, leave that in for sure. But, Ling, this has been amazing. Thank you for the inspiration. It's been really fun to chat. I hope this conversation has helped you, and I look forward to seeing how it goes.

Ling Yah Wong: Oh, thank you so much. I've really loved this conversation as well.

Pat Flynn: This was super fun. One more time, name of the podcast, and where can people find more of you?

Ling Yah Wong: She podcast is called So This Is My Why. You can find it on all social media platforms. It's got a website as well, www.SoThisMyWhy.com. It's got a weekly newsletter. So reach out. Love to hear.

Pat Flynn: Awesome. Thank you, Ling. Keep up the great work. You're amazing. And we'll chat soon.

Ling Yah Wong: Chat soon.

Pat Flynn: All right. I hope you enjoyed that podcast episode and the conversation with Ling, who you can find again at So This Is My Why. Go and check out her podcast. And like you've heard, she's got some amazing guests on the show. And I hope to appear on her show at one point. That would be amazing.

Pat Flynn: But anyway, thank you so much for listening all the way through. And thank you, Ling, for opening up, and congratulations on your success. And I cannot wait to see where you go from here. So thank you again.

Pat Flynn: I appreciate you all for listening all the way through. If you haven't yet done so, make sure to apply to spipro.com This is the premium community where you can go to find other people just like you, who understand this language of business and entrepreneurship and who are all there to support each other.

Pat Flynn: We have events. We have challenges. We have asking anythings. We have special guests come in to teach and offer you value. And I cannot wait to see in there. You have to apply, though. And make sure to apply now because the price will be going up after the next round of people come in. So I want you to come in on the next round before it's too late. Go to spipro.com.

Pat Flynn: Thank you so much. And I look forward to seeing you there as well as in the next podcast episode. Just make sure you hit that subscribe button if you haven't already, and I'll see you in the next one. Peace out. And again thank you. Cheers.

Pat Flynn: Thanks for listening to AskPat at askpat.com. I'm your host, Pat Flynn. Our senior producer is Sara Jane Hess, our series producer is David Grabowski, and our executive producer is Matt Gartland. Sound editing by Duncan Brown. AskPat is a production of SPI Media. We'll catch you in the next session.