The CX 031: 25 Lessons From Our First 25 Episodes

The CX 031: 25 Lessons From Our First 25 Episodes

Tony Bacigalupo: Heydy hey. Welcome. Hello. Welcome to The Community Experience Podcast. I'm Tony Bacigalupo and...

Jillian Benbow: I'm Jillian Benbow.

Tony: All right. This is a very special edition of our show because we are going to be recapping our top takeaways from the first 25 episodes from our show, so I'm very excited for this.

Jillian: Man, it's been a journey as you know. Everyone listening, gosh, thanks for sticking with us. Tony and I... For us, this is a new experience, new podcast. We've had some learning curves. Both of us have had microphone issues. We've learned some tech skills. I think for me, I'm so grateful to get to have these conversations and establish these relationships with other community builders, because I think community has for a long time been kind of lonely, because it is still somewhat new and niche. And so now, kind of feel like we have this community builder family, both the people we've been interviewing, but also people who enjoy the show and reach out and we talk. And it's just great. It's definitely a great advantage about a semi-niche, soon to hopefully not be niche industry and just career and all of that. What about you, Tony?

Tony: Just building on that, I was thinking about the fact that I first got into the world of community leadership almost 15 years ago now. And when I did, when I was talking with other community leaders, we really felt like we were black sheep. There wasn't a lot out there for folks who were building community, especially online. And just reflecting on the folks that we've interviewed and what all of them have achieved, this podcast wouldn't have been possible 15 years ago. And a lot of these guests and their books and their resources and their websites, this is all really proliferated just even in the last few years.

And so I think we're at an inflection point now in terms of the role community is playing and the resources and the people that are out there supporting it. And I feel like we're at the very, very beginning of a much longer journey and a much longer investigation.

Jillian: Tally-ho. Shall we jump right into the episode? I feel like we got the inspo talk before battle. Let's go.

Tony: Thank you for joining along for this wild ride and enjoy this, our 25 takeaways from our first 25 episodes here on The Community Experience.

Okay. What's up, everybody? Community Experience podcast, and we have a very special guest for you today. It's us.

Jillian: Who is it?

Tony: It's us. We are our own guest today. It is a solo duo edition. We have no guests aside from me and the imitable Jill, and we are reflecting on our first 25 episodes and what we have learned from each of those episodes. So if you've not listened to every single one of our episodes up until now, it's a nice chance to get a little cliff notes catch up.

Jillian: I've got the title for this episode, Tony. It's the TLDR.

Tony: The TLDR. I love it. So the way that this is going to work is we are going to take turns going through our first 25 episodes and our takeaways from those episodes, key takeaways. So this is the distillation, the best of the best. We're going to limit it to one minute per episode. We've got 25 episodes, 25 minutes. We'll use that minute for each one to just mention one or two of our biggest takeaways, discuss it briefly. I will be using my iPhone as a timer and it will be making noises when we get to the end of our time to keep us honest. There we go. That's what it's going to sound like.

And the way we're going to start is Jill, you will read to me who our first episode was with. And then I will tell you about my takeaways and when the time runs out, we will switch. And I'll read you who our episode two guest was and so on.

Jillian: Sounds simple enough. We'll see how well we execute. No promises.

Tony: All right. We're doing it live. We're in this together. Okay. Take it away, Jill.

Jillian: All right. So episode one was Ending the Loneliness Epidemic with Jillian Richardson.

Tony: Number one, loneliness is an epidemic. It is a serious problem. It has real health implications and you can't necessarily assume that people know how to make friends. We are going to come back to that in a future one. One of my favorite thing I learned from Jillian Richardson is that facilitated connection in a gathering really, really amplifies the ability for people to make meaningful connection. There are a lot of events that are out there where people can show up. They can sit and listen to something or consume something. Maybe there's some open ended networking. But if you are socially awkward or if you're not feeling comfortable in that environment, then that's going to be a problem. And if you are giving people prompts and ways to connect to each other so that they can get vulnerable and talk to each other, then you're going to generate better outcomes and you're going to have real connections coming through. Boom. There's the timer. All right.

Jillian: Saved by the bell.

Tony: All right, Jillian. That was Jillian. Episode number two was Unboxing Community in the Pokemon Card Niche with our wonderful Pat Flynn. Jill, take it away. One minute. Go.

Jillian: Go. What a fun episode, by the way, being one of the first ones that we recorded and with Pat, a literal professional in the podcasting space. It was a great conversation just talking about something that he's super passionate about that most people don't know anything about, and that was probably my key takeaway. One, if you know anything about Pat Flynn, you know that the riches are in the niches. So talking about niche communities, even if you think it's crowded, it's not. And also, just being willing to go in those communities and have that serve first attitude that, again, Pat is known for. You make connections and then you kind of have your super niche as Tony and I... I think that got cut from our episode, but we sang the whole super niche. It's super niche. It's kind of nichey. So now you get to hear it.

Tony: Amazing.

Jillian: All right. Moving on to episode three. The name of it is Navigating the Business of Belonging with David Spinks, a huge leader in the community space.

Tony: All right. One minute on the clock for me. David Spinks is amazing. His book, The Business of Community, has been a big hit among the community peoples. And he has so much wisdom to share. Definitely follow his Twitter. The main thing that I wanted to share from what he'd taken away is having really clear business objectives.

If you're going to start a community, especially if it's in the context of a bigger business or a more established organization, you want to have a clear sense of what success looks like, what goals your community are tied to so that you know if it's working. And if you are able to demonstrate that the community's delivering on what you're setting out to do, then that's going to give you the ability to justify further investment, whether through working with a company or even just justifying your own time and energy. So have clear objectives tied to your community when you are building one. And boom, there you go. That's one minute.

All right. I think we're getting a hang of this. Episode four was So a Rabbi Walks Into a Pandemic with Esther Letterman. Jill, take it away. You got a minute.

Jillian: Yes. Esther. That was such an amazing episode. Esther's just lovely. Something we talked about was the pandemic and she's a rabbi, so the whole concept, all of New York, all the synagogues shut down effectively. And Esther and her team figuring out, along with all the rabbis in their community, how to continue having programming with their people. And so this whole concept of multi access programming and how hashtag blessing of the pandemic is us figuring that out. And now we can have it here to stay and ensure people are getting access maybe in ways we hadn't done before prepandemic and how strong that is for communities, especially in person. That one was tough.

Tony: You got it, Jill. You got this.

Jillian: I have more to say. Okay, somehow we're only at five. This is kind of stressful. Episode five was Pandemic Remote, Real Remote and Rejecting Hustle Culture with Marisa Goldberg. Tony.

Tony: Pandemic remote is not real remote. For those of you who are working remotely for the first time during pandemic time, any of your issues with working from home, there's a really good chance that it is because you are working pandemic remote and not just regular remote. This is different. We were thrown into this situation and a lot of us were not prepared for it. This was not something that we planned for. And so just recognizing that if you are moving into doing remote on purpose, or you're considering maybe not doing something remote... And this is for your team, but for your community as well, that if you were forced into running your community online, you might be saying, "Oh, well, I never want to do that again." Doing it on purpose is a very different thing. If you create a strong sense of place and support other people having their identity outside of work really helps do it right.

Jillian: Nice. Nice timing.

Tony: You know what? It's my four years of radio. I had to do a lot of... Time my sentences perfectly for when the NPR news feed comes in or something like that.

Jillian: What? When were you on radio? Are you messing with me?

Tony: Oh, college. All four years of college I had a radio show.

Jillian: I did not know that.

Tony: Oh, yeah. 91.3 WVUD. The voice of the University of Delaware. It was good times.

Jillian: That's amazing. Learned something about Tony today.

Tony: Hey. And you who are listening or are going to learn something about the CX episode six: Monthly Recurring Relationships, MRR with Rosie Sherry.

Jillian: And that's honestly the takeaway. That was catch phrase, hashtag it, trademark it, monthly recurring relationships and just what that means in community. And if you're fostering healthy relationships, then that revenue part that we all associate with MRR is probably going to maintain and do well. You'll reduce that churn. Such a great episode. Rosie is all over Twitter, all over Rosieland and just such a delight in the community space. I was just honored to talk to her.

Because the other piece of it, I want to make sure I give credit, just thinking about what... Tony, I think what you term community scaffolding and just all the different people that the customer or community avatars in your community that make it, whether we're calling them lurkers or observers or whatever. Paying attention to those different types of people in your community and how they hold it up for you.

Tony: Brilliant. Nicely done.

Jillian: It's really stressful. Episode seven was The Unique Potential of Online Summits, a Roundtable featuring Rob Gelb.

Tony: We ran a online summit in the fall called Audience Driven Summit. And it was run on HeySummit, which I thought was just a terrific platform. And what I'm finding is that online events, online conferences are not the same thing as an in-person conference. They never will be. But they can be their own thing. You really can have a event that is special in its own way, online. And what we talked about there was just that it's a really good rallying point. And giving people that different format gives you kind of a rhythm, that there's this big thing you're building up to during the year. And then there's this kind of culmination during this big event when a lot of different people are talking about stuff and then that leads into kind of the next rhythm of membership going forward. Really excited for the prospect of conferences online, going forward.

Moving on. Our next one is CX episode eight: Protecting Yourself with Boundaries and a Healthy Mindset with Espree Devora.

Jillian: Yes. I'm delighted that it's my turn to talk about Espree because she is just so cool. We kind of started talking before we even started recording about boundaries and then it just turned into the episode. And it's so important and just that the balance between the work you're doing and the things you're striving to achieve and rest time or being able to say no about things. And Espree especially talking about the balance between generosity and burnout. And Espree learning to make people pay for those t-shirts. Don't give them away. That's okay, because that money is then money you can put back into your business to do more and reach more people. We should ask Espree how she's doing with that. We should do a follow up. Let's call right now.

Tony: Yeah. Make people pay for the t-shirts.

Jillian: Espree, how many t-shirts have you sold since we talked last? This is an intervention.

Tony: That's great.

Jillian: That's right. It's my turn to talk. Moving on to episode nine where we talked TikTok and Troll Wrangling with Keenya Kelly.

Tony: Keenya is just so amazing. What a wonderful ball of energy. I hope we get to hang out with her again real soon. She talked about how she makes herself visible in TikTok. And she talked about how if you're radically authentic, people will connect with you. And so if you are putting yourself out there in a way that is very true for you, then it's going to resonate for others. And that's I think a major part of what propelled her to such success on TikTok. And the other thing was how she handled the trolling situation, that she really leaned into it and leaned into it with compassion that somebody was giving her a hard time about something. She kind of put them on blast, kind of put the spotlight by on them, but did so in a way that was really loving and supportive. And I just thought that that was so inspiring, considering all the toxicity that's going on out there in the world, to see how somebody's handling that with grace.

Jillian: Especially on TikTok.

Tony: Exactly. Still haven't gotten into it, Jill. I'm sorry.

Jillian: I've made some really cringy videos.

Tony: That is tempting. So then we talked with Matt Sonnenberg. CX 010: How Matt Sonnenberg Leads His Community Without Actually Leading It.

Jillian: That was such a trip of a story. We ended up... Because we're investigative journalists, literally, found out that Matt launched an entire community under an alias and then had to, for lack of a better term, come clean about it at some point and just shared the lesson with all of us about think about the future and if an alias will trade off. And also, just the whole concept of you can have a community and potentially walk away from it and other people are going to pick it up and go with it and then you show back up and it's still going. You're not even leading it anymore. It's kind of like you create this thing. I would say I don't recommend that, but it worked for him. He was able to go away and focus on other things. And then when he came back, he realized, "Oh, it's still here and it's thriving." So it was a super interesting story in general.

Tony: Absolutely. I think he realized the magic of you don't have to be a leader, you could be a great community member. And sometimes that's the right role to play. Who do we got next?

Jillian: Next we have The Community Experience podcast 11. Falling in Friendship and Analog Connection with Kat Vellos.

Tony: Kat is amazing. I can't say that about every guest, but Kat is just so wonderful, so smart, creative and clever. Check out her stuff on her Instagram. She's always designing some really cool resources for people. Not just community organizers, but people who want to be closer to their own friends. And one of the takeaways was that friendships require maintenance. You got to pick up the phone, you got to reach out and connect with people. Kat and I connected for many reasons, but one of them was for our affinity for old school forms of media. So something like a telephone call, as opposed to being over video or even writing a letter, Kat's been creating some resources and supporting people writing physical letters to each other. And there's just an absolute magic to making use of the non-digital forms of media and forms of connecting, which I think are still vastly, vastly underrated. Big fan of all of that.

Jillian: She makes amazing stuff.

Tony: Onward to episode 12: Burnout Management for Community Leaders, a Roundtable Chat. That was with our friends, Jay Clouse and Matthew Gartland, part of our Team SPI crew.

Jillian: That was fun. That was our first experimentation with a roundtable, so we were figuring it out, but it was definitely interesting conversation and burnout is something we all deal with, but especially in community. And I know I talk about this all the time, but just having those boundaries and being okay with walking away. In fact, I did this earlier this week, working into the night and then said, "You know? It's never going to end, my to-do list. My eyes hurt. I'm just going to stop for the day, I've done plenty, and pick it back up tomorrow." And that was me seeing the warning signs and taking a step back for my greater health and sanity. And that's the kind of stuff we talked about — how can you catch yourself before the burnout gets there? And reminding yourself to find joy every day and do something magical to keep you in your happy place.

Tony: So nicely put. Thank you, Jill. Really useful to just remind yourself why you're doing this.

Jillian: Yeah. And then next episode, another one of my favorite people, it was episode 13: Building More Inclusive Communities with Daniel Oppong.

Tony: Okay. Daniel, such a great guy, worked with Team SPI on our DEI training work and I've learned so much from him. Learned about in this conversation, we really talked about centering and what it means to be centering in what you're doing; the kinds of language you're using, the kinds of imagery you're using and how easily you can create a more supportive environment just by being aware of what it means to make sure that you're not accidentally centering a certain group of people or a certain subset of the folks that you want to reach. So that you're making it kind of known that this isn't just for one kind of people, it's for a wider group of people. And also, shame and judgment don't help from a DEI perspective. And we saw how we taught that. Approaching the stuff with compassion, cultivating curiosity, hugely valuable. We're getting better and better episode. 14: Online Communication in the Age of Emoji with Mignon Fogarty, aka Grammar Girl.

Jillian: A delight to have Mignon on the pod. She is just the best and total fan girl. Tried to keep it cool for the episode. And what a great conversation we had with her, just talking about how language is changing in this digital age and even in community; how we talk to each other, how we interact. It's constantly evolving. In pro, for example, we often just use gifs as replies, much like many people do in Slack at work and it's hilarious. There's just such a comradery with having these community-specific ways of communicating.

Tony: Yeah. I do love the internal imagery that we've created both for Team SPI and for our SPI pro community. It's amazing, the power of little emojis, little in jokes.

Jillian: All right. That brings us to our next episode. Episode 15: An Evidence Based Approach to the Loneliness Epidemic with Nathaan Demers Psy.D.

Tony: I like that you got the Psy.D. in there. Nathaan gave us so much validation, because he's done the actual research. He's gotten into the room with people and studied what's going on with scientific rigor, confirmed a lot of what we've known. One of the things that he pointed out is that, again, something that was mentioned earlier from episode one with Jillian, we can't assume that people know how to make friends. And we can't assume that we know how to make friends ourselves.

We shouldn't shame ourselves if we think that this is hard, because it might be that we're coming up against a more systemic issue. And so just taking that into account, when we think about how to do things that would make it easier for people to make friends with each other, without assuming that they know how to do it on their own. And also, that people might be thinking that they're lonelier than they actually are, that people might actually have a better network of support than they realize, which I think has a lot of potential to be useful for us. There we go. Episode 16: Community First, Workout Second with Kelly Roberts of Badass Lady Gang. Take it away, Jill.

Jillian: Kelly is just so fun, such a fun person. I think I especially love that she was able to take something that she wanted to do, realized that the way it happens, the existing community around it did not fit the way that served her. And so she created community around community first, running second. She created community around, "I want people to run with, but I don't want running to be the end all be all." We're not training for something. We're not trying to get a negative split, any of the running jargon. We want to talk, we want to have fun. We'll jog a little bit and then we'll talk some more. And not only does it work for her, but obviously it works for a lot of people who then joined and now they have groups around the country doing the same thing. And I think there's really something to be said about, don't feel like you have to try things or experiencing things on someone else's terms.

Tony: Really well put. Appreciate that. I don't want to over opine. If you want to hear us talk a lot more about any of these, go find the episodes. They're all there for you.

Jillian: Right. Which leads us to episode 17: Avatars, Safety, and the Paradox Sandwich of Community Building with Marianna Martinelli.

Tony: Okay. One of this things that I got out of this was the fact that we as a organizer, have to deal with the fact that we want a community to have some specific context, but we also want it to not feel like an in group thing that's too exclusive. And so she used the phrase paradox sandwich, which I think is just wonderful, of trying to balance that curation. And what I find is that we want to try to look for ways to implicitly communicate to people why they should or shouldn't want to be a part of this community without necessarily making it about, "We don't want you here." It's more about, "This is going to be useful to you if you fit these kinds of criteria or values. Otherwise, maybe there's some other thing that we can point you to that will be more appropriate." And that's a balancing act that we can all get better at over time.

Onward to episode 18: How Big Brands Approach Community with Jenny Weigle.

Jillian: This was a great conversation as someone who's worked for big brands. And if you listen to the episode, you probably remember me talking about that. Something I really enjoyed about that conversation was focusing on your language. Talk like a stakeholder to get stakeholder buy-in. And that can be a real challenge as a community professional because our skillset organically is more the in the weeds community stuff. And so having to prove your worth, if you will, to the high ups, how to communicate the value of community beyond metrics is a challenge. And then as well, the different community members, talk to them, interview them, learn from them. You'll learn lots of things that you didn't know you needed to know. And of course, our favorite: Lurkers. They're fine. Check in with them. They're fine. Okay, you can leave them alone. They're okay. They will reach out if they need you, but they're happy.

Tony: Lurkers going to lurk.

Jillian: And some people do. Oh, gosh. I just want to talk about it now again. Okay. Jill, focus. All right. Episode 19 was Codes of Conduct and Community Safety with the Queer Design Club.

Tony: These guys had some great guidance. I think we spiritually were building on our conversation with Daniel and talking about... There was this thread that we took away of we're not just trying to create an environment that's accepting for everybody. We actually thought about you and this is designed to be supportive of you. And so there's a big difference between saying, "Everybody's welcome." And we've thought about the different kinds of people who might be coming in here, who might feel uncomfortable because of one reason or another. And we want you to know in what we've written in our code of conduct, we took time and we thought about what it's like for somebody to come into this community from this background or from that background or with this kind of identity, and that that really, really helps you to get your language and your inclusivity to a really, really compelling level. Am I making sense on that?

Jillian: You are.

Tony: Okay, good.

Jillian: But you're out of time, so it's too bad.

Tony: Doesn't matter. Episode 20 was Using Data to Design Sustainable Communities with Gina Bianchini.

Jillian: Yes. Gina from Mighty Networks. And she is a data queen, let me tell you. They did a white paper at the very end of last year, beginning of this year, that was just amazing. A plus plus. Love seeing a woman running a company like that and being so data focused. Key takeaways from the episode besides everything I just said... Can you tell I stan Gina? Is just really looking at that data, but then also onboarding. One of my favorite topics ever. Onboarding, onboarding and programming, how to align it so that things stay consistent and then keep in consistent in your community so your community members know what to expect. Just that expectancy, if you will, people know how it works, they know how to engage, they know what comes next. Make it comfortable for people.

Tony: Absolutely. Gina's been in the battles. She has been in the world of community leadership for so long, has so much wisdom to share. So great to have her along.

Jillian: Which leads us to then next episode, episode 21: Let Your Members Steer Your Community with Danielle Maveal of burb.co.

Tony: Aka Danielle XO. She has been so great with thinking about things on a higher level. Specifically one of the takeaways we talked about was letting members steer things. And especially as the community grows, giving the community a way to refactor itself so that there's always a sense that there's small community, even among the bigger community. So if you still start out with a few people, you grow to dozens, hundreds, thousands of people, it's kind of like a big city can be broken down into neighborhoods or smaller units. And that if you give everybody ways to have that smaller, more shared context, then you're going to be able to continue to take advantage of a lot of the strengths of a smaller community even when you get big. There you go.

Jillian: Next time I hear that noise, I'm going to immediately stop talking, hear it out in the world.

Tony: Episode 22, I'm so excited to hand this one over to you, Jill. Dismantling the System and Having Fun with Moira Were.

Jillian: Again, I'm a broken record, but it was so fun. Moira is amazing. Something really great about this episode is Moira runs a co-op. Certainly community, but co-ops are next level community, because all your members have ownership in it. Also, she works in social justice. She's fighting for change. And so the whole concept of making the revolution irresistible and how you can leverage symbols and imagery to make conversation starters. She has her group of clucks so of course they do the... No clucks given. It's just funny. You immediately want to know more and it's a great way to get people curious about your community. And I think she just does such an excellent job and is so good at running a community that might be considered controversial in some way, but doing it in a very loving way, not attacking people. Instead, questioning concepts, being critical, questioning things that happen in society. Moira is just really an amazing leader to follow if you're interested in that. I need more time.

Tony: Revolutionary in such a graceful way.

Jillian: Yeah. I dig it. Which leads us to episode 23: The Pandora’s Box of Customer Experience with Nick Glimsdahl.

Tony: Dial one for Nick, press one for Nick. And he was so great in terms of... He deals in customer service, which is such a difficult world, because you're basically always dealing with people who are unhappy, and that is something that any community manager has to deal with. First of all, the concept of using tactical empathy to deescalate situations. Recognizing that when you are in a situation of potential conflict, something difficult, that you can try to find a way in the moment to understand what's going on for the person. Reflect, make it known that you are aware of what's going on for them and that you understand them so that you can deescalate situations. And the phrase unaddressed emotions never die. You can't just shut people down. If they have an issue, if there's something going on, we have to find a way to achieve harmony or they're just going to stay angry, so communication's super important.

All right. We got two left, Jill. We're almost there. Episode 24: Unlocking Exceptional Engagement through Self Inquiry with Phil and Krista Franks of Owl and Key.

Jillian: Yes. This was a fun one. Krista's Instagram, by the way, is everything. You should follow her if you don't already, everyone. She was doing back flips on a trampoline, showing her kids she's still got it, today or recently. This was a great conversation because their community is about relationships and that can be a lot. I can't even imagine. They just have really great programming that's very... Is it illusionary? I don't think that's the word, but just very so well thought out. They focus on members' drives and drains. They have activities that are frankly kind of heavy. But given the type of community it is, they make a ton of sense. You need to push those boundaries a little bit when trying to make progress on relationships. It's just very well curated. And I think that's a lesson for all of us. And a big part of their community is really connecting with their members from the jump, from the onboarding, and really establishing deep relationships and investigate in people's interests early on. It's a much more, I would say, very intense community experience in a good way.

Tony: Intense in a good way is definitely very useful.

Jillian: It's a great lesson, too. I realized I'm supposed to be introducing episode 25. I was still thinking about types of communities. This was such a great episode. I still laugh about our horse course joke that came about from this, and it's episode 25: Don’t Do the Hustle: From Hospitalized to Sustainable Community with Tom Ross.

Tony: Tom Ross, who has been humbled by his experience, knows what it is like to push too hard and burn out too hard, come out the other end. And I'm just so grateful that he came back and built something again, applied what he learned, and has been so forthright with sharing his experience. And what I find interesting is he's not necessarily saying hard work is the enemy. He said hard work's not necessarily the enemy, it's more about adding the healthy behaviors. You can work really hard if you are also doing other things that make sure you're taking care of yourself first, which I think is a really important distinction. And one of the ways that you can ensure yourself against burnout is to build a team of power users, really nurture those people. And they're going to really help reduce the load for you and make your community more resilient so that it's not just all on you, which is a really great way to wrap our recap of 25 episodes. That's time. Jill, how are you doing? My head is spinning.

Jillian: It's hard to believe. It's it feels like we've done a lot more, which I guess technically we have because we record beforehand. But at the same time, looking through this, it kind of seems like forever ago, but also just yesterday.

Tony: We've come a long way. This thing still feels brand new to me, this podcast, but we've talked to some really incredible people. We've learned a lot and I hope that all of you out there listening have learned a lot along with us that you've gotten some inspiration. Hopefully you are super psyched to go check out some of the other episodes now if there's some that you missed or you want to revisit. And if your head spinning like ours is... Ours are?

Jillian: Ours is. Our collective.

Tony: We need to end this episode soon. If you're head is spinning like ours, then let us know about it. @TeamSPI on Twitter. We'd love to hear more about what your favorite episodes were, what your favorite takeaways were. In the meantime, we're going to keep going. We got some terrific guests coming up. We've got a lot more areas to explore. We have a lot more loneliness to fix and more connections to make and burnout to avoid. So stick with us on this journey and appreciate having you all along for the ride as we go.

Jillian: We'll see you next Tuesday.

Tony: As always, bye. This has been the community experience for more information on this episode, including links and show notes, head over to smartpassiveincome.com/listen. Our executive producer is Matt Gartland. Our series producers are David Grabowski and senior producer Sara Jane Hess. Editing and sound designed by Duncan Brown. Music by David Grabowski.

Jillian: See you next time.