by: AP1123 How do I get more clients and stand out in the crowded niche I'm in?
Jingle: AskPat.com, Ask. Pat. Dot. Com
Pat Flynn:
What's up everybody? Pat Flynn here and welcome to episode 1,123 of AskPat 2.0. You're about to listen to a coaching call between myself and an entrepreneur just like you. And today we're talking with Kelyn Block who is a basketball coach, loves it. That's his passion. It's not his full time gig, but he does teach kids of several different ages and wants to do more of that. He wants to get in the gym more and use his superpowers.
Pat:
So there's a lot of navigating that I do today to discover where might we be able to go with his special skill because obviously he's not the only one to teach basketball, but we try to find a super power within that and how he could differentiate himself. And this is a really great conversation, very, very tactical in terms of how I approached the questions and how I tried to get Kelyn comfortable talking a little bit more about himself. So I hope that you could take this, and perhaps you might be trying to coach somebody down the road.
Pat:
I encourage you to just pay attention to how I'm talking to Kelyn and how great of a job he does of answering the questions too, and I think we get some really exciting conclusions here. So make sure you listen to all the way through. I appreciate you and here he is, Kelyn Block.
Pat:
Kelyn what's up? Welcome to AskPat. Thanks so much for being here today.
Kelyn Block:
What's up Pat? How are you doing?
Pat:
I'm doing good. Really excited to learn more about you and help you out. So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do.
Kelyn:
Okay. My name's Kelyn Block. I am a basketball coach and I do some basketball skill training, development, teaching, coaching, however you want to phrase it. I know people use a lot of different phrases for that and that's kind of why I wanted to get in touch with you, just to kind of see what aim or direction I should take that skills or development coaching.
Pat:
How do you currently coach people? Is it more in person? Is it online at all? What do you have going on right now?
Kelyn:
Everything is in person. I don't really do anything online. I know that's a big thing now. I know people are really big into that space. Everything that I do is in person.
Pat:
That's cool. Any particular age group that you coach more than others?
Kelyn:
No, I mean it's kind of a wide spectrum. I have kids as young as maybe first or second grade all the way up to high school, actually college. I had a couple of professional guys but they retired and started coaching. So most of my kids are in between, like I said, second to third grade all the way up to college.
Pat:
That's cool man, that's cool. I used to ball quite often—pick up games here in San Diego, even as an adult. I just love the game and I want to help you out. So I think the first question is sort of what's on your mind? Where do you want to take this? I'm curious to know with basketball coaching and helping kids out, what is your goal?
Kelyn:
I mean I would assume just like everybody else it's to find a way to turn this into a full time gig. I mean just kind of outside of coaching, I have another full time job that I do than coaching. So it's just really about how to turn it into a full time job, what's the best way to do it, the best manner to approach it.
Pat:
Awesome. How are you currently getting clients signed up?
Kelyn:
Pretty much word of mouth. I mean it's been that way since I started. It's probably been ... I played professional ball for about five or six years. I think I got done about 2010 or so. So, it's pretty much been word of mouth since then.
Pat:
That's cool. That's a really good sign because you know that means you are probably helping some kids out and they're sharing, and their parents are sharing with each other and that's good because that means you got quality stuff, right? So that's often the first thing I try to figure out, is like okay well, is what you're doing worth putting out there in the world? Because if it wasn't good, all we're putting out there in the world is more of the sort of average stuff, right?
Pat:
So that's good that you have some signs that, okay this is something people actually want and word of mouth is kind of the best kind of marketing, but we could definitely ramp it up. I think before we get into strategies and things like that, I'd love to know what your definition of full-time coach is and what would be that requirement, because my goal in these kinds of conversations is to figure out ... And you've already told me what you want, but I want a little bit more clarity.
Pat:
So we know for example, how many kids would that be? Or how many hours would you want to put into this? Or what would be the moment when you would say, "Oh yeah, this is full time for me," so that you can make a decision to leave whatever it is you're doing, or slow it down or what have you. Do you have any numbers in mind in terms of income? Or a number of kids? Or hours per day or anything like that yet?
Kelyn:
I mean obviously I would probably say it's more income based. I mean the amount of kids doesn't necessarily matter.
Pat:
Right.
Kelyn:
I would probably say it's more income based. So to be able to replace what I would make from my full time job and coaching—I mean I would continue to coach, it's just something I love to do. But income wise, just to replace that full-time job, I would probably assume too that I would probably need a little more just because I wouldn't have simple insurance [inaudible 00:05:39].
Pat:
Benefits, and what not.
Kelyn:
Right, yeah. So I would assume that I would need more, I would assume private insurance by the case, but I would say it's more income based as opposed to saying hours or kids. Typical eight hours, obviously at work and then depending on the day, maybe in a gym four hours, or I could be in the gym one hour. It just kind of really depends. I mean with something like this, it would be like a fitness class. Obviously, you have more people that you can potentially make more money in a shorter amount of time.
Pat:
Yeah, the group coaching stuff is definitely where you could get scalability, right. I'm curious, if you made the same amount of income that you make now with your job, but instead of going eight hours a day into work and then spending time at the gym, it's just literally eight hours at the gym with kids. Would that be good enough for you, you think? Because you'd be not working all day and then having to do it just a part of your day, and even though the income's the same and maybe the benefits aren't even quite there yet. I'm just curious on in terms of like emotionally how that would feel to you to just not even have to go into work, but you're working with kids all day and maybe the income's the same.
Kelyn:
I mean, I'd be cool with that. The gym is typically where I want to be playing basketball all my life. It's something that I love. I would assume too, I can't fully say, that would probably be like how a teacher would feel, to stay or be in a classroom with kids all day.
Pat:
Yeah, agree to-
Kelyn:
I would guess that I would be okay with that, but at the same time, I think that's one of those things if I got to that point and I needed to do something different, maybe hire somebody or work with somebody else or have other people to work with me and perform some of those sessions, as opposed to me doing that, then that would probably be a bridge I would cross at that time.
Pat:
Yeah, that's definitely phase two or phase three, right? Once you get the word out there, once you have a steady number of clients coming in, if you can't handle them all yourself, you can start scaling up and having other coaches come, sort of coach with you. Or when you're not in the gym, there's at least somebody there at all times, that sort of thing starts to happen. But I want to rewind a little bit and talk a little bit about that number and we don't have to share exactly what that number is, but I think that's very important to have you figure out and have it be a goal because then what happens after that? It's essentially just math, right?
Kelyn:
Right.
Pat:
And the number of clients you would need in that moment when you're like, "This is going the way I want it to. I can quit or I can slow down," or what have you. It's just a math equation, right? So what could happen is, let's say it was $50,000 a year. I'm putting a number up there.
Kelyn:
Right, okay.
Pat:
You could have one client pay you $50,000 a year to be their personal coach, right? It's like some, I don't know, some wealthy family who wants their kid to go pro, and they're going to just going to hire the best, and pay top dollar for that, right? That could literally happen, one client only at that dollar amount could get you to that number, right? Or it's two clients at 25K, and the math goes on and on and on.
Pat:
So in addition to, "Okay, well this is how much money I need," it might be interesting to consider, especially based on going rates, which I don't know what those are, but depending on, on what you want to do, you could also determine who your target market is. Because you could have the same package essentially, but depending on who you're selling it to, and ultimately what their goals are and of course their income level as well, I mean you could potentially charge a premium and have less clients to worry about and get to your number sooner, but at the same time they'd likely demand a little bit more from you at that dollar level too.
Pat:
Where's your head at, in terms of the kinds of clients that you'd want to bring in? Because you could charge $10 an hour, and you would need so many students to get to that number too, right. So where's your head at in terms of that?
Kelyn:
I think that's kind of the line, dealing with kids. When you're at a younger age, obviously you need the kids to just kind of develop. So just saying to a second or third or fourth grade kid may need to focus on basketball, that doesn't necessarily help them, right? Because basketball may end up being their sport as opposed to somebody who's maybe a sophomore or junior kid that's decided they're not going to necessarily play another sport, or maybe they play in those sports that doesn't conflict with basketball.
Kelyn:
So I think that's kind of that line you walk, just as far as, who do I approach, not necessarily, "Oh well, I don't deal with, I don't do younger kids. Maybe I only do older kids. Maybe I only try to deal with professionals," which everybody wants to deal with professionals, right? Because they will be the most dedicated because that will be their profession or their jobs. So they need to be the best they can be as opposed to, again, maybe saying a middle school kid or a high school kid who is not going to have the same type of dedication-
Pat:
Mentality, yeah.
Kelyn:
Right, they just don't understand that yet. They're not to that point in their career or their life, where it's just like, "Man, all right, I needed to devote this much attention to this to be the best that I can possibly be." So I guess that's kind of that line where you would walk, because I would walk the path that somebody would walk to go to college and impossibly play professionally, whether that's in Europe or the NBA.
Kelyn:
Sometimes you, as a coach, have to kind of tame what you would think, or even how you would talk to them or what you've been talked to them about because of that. So if you see somebody that's not as dedicated, then you can't put what you did or how you thought on them because again, that's not necessarily how they may think or approach that.
Pat:
Exactly.
Kelyn:
Does that makes sense?
Pat:
Yeah. Yeah, totally, and I think, what's really cool about this is as you are just starting this out and wanting to scale it up, what's really cool is you have choices. You could go in any direction you want, and the most important thing is you have to make decisions though. When it comes to marketing and scaling up, it's very common for entrepreneurs, especially coaches to go, "Well I want to coach everybody because I want as many clients as possible."
Pat:
On one hand I get that. It's like you want to keep your options open, but at the same time, they call this niching down, right? The riches are in the niches. If you are like, "I am only going to coach these ages of kids or these kinds of kids, and these are the results that I'm going to get those kids," then it becomes very clear for somebody on the other end, "Oh that's not for me." And that's okay, or on the other hand they go, "Oh you are exactly who I was looking for." And I think there could be some interesting things.
Pat:
I think that's the most important thing for you to start thinking about Kelyn, is what kind of coaching do you want to be known for? How do you want people to start finding others like them and bringing them your way? Because right now, word of mouth I'm assuming is kind of all over the place, and word of mouth is great again, but it could be, a young kid one day, an older kid another day and a different skill level another day. And that's also hard for you because as a coach, the best way to improve the service that you could offer your clients is to have that focus and have that specialty. Everything is all about that, and although it sort of leaves more people out that aren't there, it also brings more people in who are there, and be creative with it.
Pat:
I mean I think there's some really amazing things. I once heard a coach, it was an in a different sport, but they were a highly seeked-out coach because they not only helped the person get good at their sport and move up to the college NCAA level, but they also help that kid navigate the decision making in the college application process. And that was a part of the package like, "I'm going to help your kid get better at this, but as a part of that I'm going to be there as a counselor for your kid as he grows up and gets into college." And I thought that was like a really neat way to add additional sort of care and thought in this very specific kind of sport, but what do you want to be known for and how do you want people to ... What's on your business card, right? "I help people get better at basketball." Every basketball coach does that. So what's unique about you would you say?
Kelyn:
Do you mind if I ask what sport?
Pat:
It was field hockey.
Kelyn:
Oh, right. The reason I asked that, that's a niche sport to begin with, right. So a coach in that specific sport who does that wouldn't be as commonplace ... That's the thing about basketball. That's the hardest thing about basketball and basketball, one of the, it may be the only sport that's like this, where people look at basketball and say, "Well I can do what that guy's doing," or, "I'm good at that." Nobody does that with football. You don't do that with baseball. They don't do that with the other sports.
Kelyn:
I think it's just the accessibility of basketball. You can just go grab a basketball and go anywhere and play. You can't necessarily just do that with football or a baseball, and that's why I asked. There are a ton, I mean there's so much on the basketball side with people who promote, with people who, like you were saying, if you add that extra skill as far as promoting the kids to get them to college, there are so many mom and pop people or businesses or whatever you want to call them that do that for these kids.
Kelyn:
You can put it, go on the internet and there could be four, five, 600 sites. Probably not that many but as an exaggeration, but there are tons of resources like that to say, "Come put your information on our website, pay this amount and we'll publicize your kid and put them out to these colleges."
Pat:
Right.
Kelyn:
Now obviously [inaudible 00:16:07] success rate, whatever the case is.
Pat:
Yeah, I've seen it. I mean I was following Zion, when he was in high school and I saw all the help he was getting from just all the social media stuff, which I know he wasn't even doing. Other people were doing it for him and that's sort of one level of service, right? What I think would be helpful for you is, and this is great, you've already got like a headstart with, you are coaching, it's proven people are sharing word of mouth.
Pat:
Are you proactively asking for that word of mouth, and creating easier ways for those people to share you? Because I think that's a very unique thing that you have already available to you, and since it's kind of working already, what we could do is almost start there and just make that work even better, if that makes sense.
Kelyn:
I probably don't do it as much as I should. I'm a pretty reserved guy just in general.
Pat:
Right.
Kelyn:
So, I mean something as easy as saying, like you're saying, something as easy as saying, "Hey yo, if you know anybody else that is interested, or would like to develop more, obviously don't be shy about that." And I say that every now and. I think sometimes, if I have a larger group as opposed to a smaller group, or when I get newer people, they go, "Man, this is great. This is our first time doing something like this." Or, "We've done it before and we like this a little better because of the setup," or what have you then. "Oh yeah, for sure don't be scared to invite more people or pass the word along." But, something as simple as that, I'm sure I don't do it enough-
Pat:
And that's easy, right? That's free to do.
Kelyn:
Right.
Pat:
So that's kind of low-hanging fruit if you will, to just kind of build that client base a little bit more. If word of mouth is working, guess what happens when you build your client base a little bit more. Now there's more mouths to spread the word right? And it can kind of just happen organically through their ... What's interesting about this conversation, we've been talking for like twenty minutes. We haven't mentioned building a website or going on Instagram and starting to share any of that stuff and I don't think you should be there at first.
Pat:
This is very common for people to see other people doing it online. It's like, "Oh I need a website, I need this many followers on Instagram." I follow, I don't know if you follow Lethal Shooter on Instagram? But he helps coach people specifically on shooting form.
Kelyn:
Shooting, right. Yeah.
Pat:
And it's just incredible, but you can start with what you have access to already, and get up to that point. I would still say some sort of specialty goes a very long way. Even if it's not the main thing that is your selling point, it becomes like a sidebar selling point. "Oh by the way, I coach kids and I also am known for helping kids increase their vertical better than anybody else." Right?
Kelyn:
Right.
Pat:
Like some specific skill in there which can be very attracting, especially for the larger kids who want to dunk and go crazy, but nothing I would ever know about or even attempt to know anymore. But yeah, I think you have access to ... I think something needs to unlock in your brain to just be okay with asking every once in a while, and it's not scammy. It's not like you're going to pretend to throw a pizza party and then tell everybody, "All right guys, you got to invite a friend," and then you're going to pitch everybody kind of situation like you see in the finance industry and stuff, but just natural conversation.
Pat:
Another thing that works really well when it comes to referrals is just somehow rewarding or thanking the people who was the one to spread the word, right. And it doesn't have to be huge, just like even a little card or a little gift, or taking their family out to pizza one day. If they helped you get a client that's been around for a while, just thanking them.
Pat:
That's how real estate people get their stuff done. They help a family get a home and then they're just in constant contact with them over time just to, "Hey, how's your home doing?" And then, "Oh by the way, if you know anybody else that's moving in around the area, I'd love to take care of them too for you." And then they take care of your friends as well and then they give you a little gift basket and you're like, "Oh yeah, I'm always going to recommend Melissa every time somebody asks me about home buying in this neighborhood now,"
Pat:
That kind of situation doesn't even require a website. I would say that eventually having a easy Squarespace website where it's just ... Because what's going to happen is people are going to spread the word of mouth and they're going to go, "Oh, tell me more. Where can I go find him?"
Kelyn:
Right, I have a website.
Pat:
You do have a website.
Kelyn:
Yeah, I don't really use it though, and again, it's one of those things I really want to redo it. I spent all this time trying to ... I mean I threw it up myself. I spent all of this time probably way too much time on it-
Pat:
Most of us do-
Kelyn:
By getting it up and then it's like one of those things, I don't really really use it and people can go there and I still get some random hits from that, just people ... I have videos on Instagram. I use a Twitter where I post little bits and pieces of my workouts or whatever, and people can go to the workout, I mean my website and get a little backstory and I still get inquiries from that. But again, most of this stuff is just word of mouth stuff. People who are already been playing or people who have been coming, or newer people who have just showed up and then it's like, "Oh yeah, if you know any other people obviously that you play with or family members that would be interested or have been looking, for sure invite them in."
Pat:
You do have an Instagram, you said, where you share some videos here and there?
Kelyn:
Yeah.
Pat:
Okay that's really cool because here's what could potentially happen that could help support our idea of the word of mouth stuff. If one of your kids is doing awesome and maybe has a high scoring game or just some win of any kind, post a picture up with parents' permission obviously of that kid, and make them feel good and make them feel proud, shine a light on them. And what happens is, their parents and other friends will see that and they usually @tag their friends or they usually go, "Hey, check out this post that describes his game," and that just points more eyeballs your way.
Pat:
Then what I would do is in every post or almost every post, I would just say at the bottom after the story, after the shining the light on your kids. End your workouts, every post even should be, "Hey, by the way, if you want to talk about maybe getting yourself coached or somebody you know coached, shoot me a DM," and that's it.
Kelyn:
Right.
Pat:
And then it's just very easy for them to just reach out to you from there. So if you are going to do anything online, I would focus there. I wouldn't even worry about your website to be honest right now.
Kelyn:
Right. I mean, the sad part is I have all of these videos. I'll take these videos, with the intention of maybe posting something. I end up not either posting, just because I don't even take the time to do it, or obviously family life hits or what have you.
Pat:
For sure.
Kelyn:
And I don't even post ... A lot of times I'd take these videos to study, right? Just all right, I got these videos, I talk about this stuff with the kids, stuff we're working on, a video kind of breakdown.
Pat:
You got to share that stuff, behind the scenes and how you coach? Oh my gosh, it's, "I love everything he's saying. Look at how good he is with these kids. I want that too." Right? And part of the struggle is this is new for all of us. We have to remember to turn the camera on or turn the phone on some times, and it's hard to remember. And I think just building that habit a little bit, support you really, really well, and I love that idea, and the fact you're getting technical also will help you stand out from other coaches who are just kind of showing the highlights and that kind of thing.
Pat:
But I think that, you also have to think about making the kid feel good about something, reinforcing the good hard work that he did or she did and that's a good reason. And that would pump me up to, "Okay, I'll spend ten minutes to craft a nice post to celebrate this person and what they just did." And that ultimately just helps spread the word a little bit more.
Kelyn:
Right, that makes sense. I mean that makes sense. Again, it's like some of this stuff is just, "Oh yeah, I just need to do that," and then I'll do it for a week or a couple of weeks, and then it just slowly fades.
Pat:
Yeah. I mean this is so common, right? This is what everybody ... We get excited and we try it. What I would do is not try to do it forever, just build a habit. So what you could do is maybe for the next two weeks, you just let your people know on Instagram, "Hey guys, I'm doing a 14-day challenge where I'm going to post a win from one of my kids every day for 14 days." And it's just 14 days. You're not committed forever, but as you know, when you challenge somebody, you would challenge yourself.
Pat:
People will rise to the occasion and get it done and you build that habit a little bit. And likely you won't go every day after that, but at least you'll have ... You get used to the process, it'll remind you later and you might do another challenge later on, or when the moment comes, you won't be as hesitant anymore.
Kelyn:
That makes sense. I mean, again, it just makes sense.
Pat:
Yeah, and make it easy on yourself. If it were easy, what would it look like? It doesn't have to be professionally shot. Whatever simple, and that's the other thing that holds a lot of people back. But I think you have all the pieces of the puzzle, and you can take this wherever you want to go. And hopefully the conversation today helped at least give you a little bit of direction and motivation for where you might take this.
Kelyn:
I appreciate that.
Pat:
Do you have a website link? Or where can we ... Because people are going to be interested in following up and seeing what you're up to and where should people check you out.
Kelyn:
Let me look. It's so sad, I don't even know what my IG is, my Instagram. I barely hop on. This is a sad, sad story. So I'm on Instagram, it's k_block14.
Pat:
K_block14, all right.
Kelyn:
Website is masterwithkb.weebly.com.
Pat:
Cool. Dude, you got all the pieces. I envision with just a little bit of conscious doing, nothing hard, you'll start to see results.
Kelyn:
I appreciate that. Sometimes you're going to need a little bit of push.
Pat:
Yeah. It's a marathon, but if you use a basketball analogy, this game of business, it's a game. It's long, but you can break it up into different quarters, you can break it up into different plays. Focus on the next play. You're good.
Kelyn:
I'm walking into the gym right now.
Pat:
Yeah, you're in your element, so I'll let you go. But thanks so much, I appreciate you and good luck.
Kelyn:
Thanks Pat.
Pat:
Bye. All right, I hope you enjoyed that chat with Kelyn. Great guy as you could tell, just really cares about his kids and wants to do this more, and I can't wait to catch up with him in the future after he implements some of these things. Very, very interesting conversation about using Instagram and just kind of sharing success stories with the kids, parents' permission obviously, but to sort of just provide social proof for what he does and differentiate himself. Because the truth is, and this is for everybody, nobody's like you. Nobody does things in the same way that you do. So when you show up, you attract people who love you for you and want to work with you.
Pat:
So Kelyn great job, good luck to you. And if you're listening to this and you're like, "Man, I wish I was coached like Pat or I was ..." Sorry, "I wish I was coached like Kelyn from Pat today," you have that opportunity. Just head on over to ... Did I just raspberry on the podcast? I think that's the first time I've ever done that. We're going to keep it in because this is real life. But anyway, if you want to get coached by me at some point in time, it's not guaranteed, but you have to apply to try. Go to askpat.com fill out the application that's there. Answer a few questions for me. I read them all and I select just, it's kind of random but not random, if that makes sense. But I may reach back out to you and we'll have a chat here on the show, help you, help others listening in and we'll have some fun at the same time too.
Pat:
So thank you so much for listening and I appreciate you. Make sure you hit subscribe if you haven't already. And as always, #TeamFlynnforthewin. Peace.