About This Episode
This week I'm coaching Emory, a backpacker with a niche site called ByLand.co, which is dedicated to helping people backpack better. He created the blog to bridge the gap between different communities of backpacking—long-distance hikers, weekenders, hunters. Through his podcast by the same name—The By Land Podcast—Emory has been able to prove his concept and connect different communities. Some episodes have over a thousand downloads, and he's being invited onto other podcasts as well. How can he monetize and continue to help people?
We start the call by sharpening Emory's goals and talking about the fear of making money. Then we discern what Emory's audience really needs, and how providing something like a packing list with affiliate links can help his audience and earn him income at the same time. We discuss what Emory's next steps in helping his audience might be, and I encourage him to work backwards from a set monetary goal so that he can go full-time with his online business. At the end of the call, Emory identifies his next steps and creates an action plan going forward.
What You'll Learn:
Discover effective methods for monetizing a niche business and overcoming fears about making money.
AskPat 1026 Episode Transcript
Pat Flynn: Hey, what's up everybody? Thank you for listening in. This is Session 1026 of AskPat 2.0. This is a show where I coach entrepreneurs like you. You apply at AskPat.com, and I might select your question, and we talk about your pains and problems live on a coaching call. Today we're talking with Emory, who has a hobby website, a very interesting one, actually. He's a backpacker. He hiked the Pacific Crest Trail, he has a lot of people who follow him online related to just backpacking stuff. I'm not a backpacker myself, but I can understand how people might need some help with that, especially when it's a multi-day trek like that. Emory and I discuss how to monetize this thing and he actually has some solutions that come out at the end of this. Make sure you stick around for that.
Now, before we get to that I do want to thank the sponsor of AskPat, this whole year really, which is FreshBooks. One of my favorite companies, they just are continually improving the user experience there to make our experience with managing business finances much, much easier. I call them the Anti-Headache Pill or the Stress Reliever, because really, keeping track of your finances can be really, really difficult, especially come tax season, and you want to know the profit and loss statements, and the balance sheets, and all that stuff. That's all automatically done with FreshBooks. That keeps track of your books, your income, your expenses, your invoices. They could actually automatically track your expenses too, because you can connect your business credit cards there. It's all super sweet and perfect for you if you are a small business owner. You could be one of the three million other small businesses that they serve.
If you want to check it out for thirty days for free, you can get a thirty-day free trial, full access at FreshBooks.com/askpat. Just make sure you enter “Ask Pat” in the “How did you hear about us?” section. All right, here we go. This is the coaching session with Emory. Let's do it.
Emory, thank you so much for joining me on AskPat 2.0 today. How are you?
Emory Wanger: I'm great, thanks for having me man.
Pat Flynn: Yeah, thanks for being here. Before we dive into all that we can do to help you, why don't you just introduce yourself and your business to the audience?
Emory Wanger: Yeah. My name is Emory Wanger, I run a blog and website, or website and podcast called By Land. What I'm trying to accomplish with it is, I started it to help people backpack better. I realized there was a lot of crazy information out there, and no one was really doing the basics of it, and it was kind of my way to tell people what I was learning and help people just accomplish their goals, basically. I don't care if you're long distance hiking, or out backpack hunting, or out for the weekend. It's like, here's all this information, bringing people on the podcast, telling their stories, and kind of helping people get better at what they do to kind of reach those goals that they're looking for. That's kind of what I'm doing, just working on creating content for people. So far, it's been really well received from multiple communities, which is kind of a big eye opener for me.
Pat Flynn: Yeah, that's great. Are you a big time backpacker?
Emory Wanger: Yeah, I would say I'm really into it. I hiked the Pacific Crest Trail last year, so I was able to accomplish 2,000 miles of the 2,650. So, started out of San Diego and ended in Canada.
Pat Flynn: Wow. Yeah, that's . . .
Emory Wanger: Yeah, I'm into it.
Pat Flynn: Yeah, that's crazy man. How long does that take to do that?
Emory Wanger: Oh, man. It's usually five to six months. So I did it in five.
Pat Flynn: Because I was going to say, it's not an overnight trip.
Emory Wanger: No, it's not overnight.
Pat Flynn: That's crazy. In terms of your audience, what are their goals? What are they looking to achieve, really?
Emory Wanger: I think they're just trying to . . . Backpacking is so complicated. It can be really complicated to someone that hasn't done it a lot. What I learned, especially over 2,000 miles was believe it or not, it's really not that complicated. What I found is people have these barriers to entry, I call them barriers to entry, where it could be mental, it could be physical. And everyone I talk to is like, “Oh, I'd really love to backpack.” And I'm like, “You can backpack. You can do these things.” But, they just have to get over these hurdles, and sometimes it's either someone that's never done it that wants to try it, or it's someone that has been doing it and they're like, “Well what does it look like to hike 2,000 miles on a long distance trail?” I'm like, “Okay, that's another barrier.” Right? They're kind of building up to this thing they want to accomplish, because everyone has this weird, this strange connection to these adventures they want to do. I look at it as my duty to help these people break down those barriers and achieve those missions they want to accomplish in the outdoors.
Pat Flynn: I love it. I always wanted to do something like that. You're right, just human nature, we want to kind of be one with nature.
Emory Wanger: Yep.
Pat Flynn: And, you know, hiking and such. For me, I would imagine a big barrier is just, “Does that mean I have to quit working for six months? How much money do I need?” That's where my head is at. But anyway, where can I go, and all of us go, to get more information? What's the website URL?
Emory Wanger: ByLand.co is the url.
Pat Flynn: ByLand.co. Not by air or by sea, but by land.
Emory Wanger: No, it's definitely By Land.
Pat Flynn: Sweet. So what's on your mind?
Emory Wanger: Well okay, so where I'm finding myself is, I started this thing a couple years ago. I actually started the podcast, I was listening to your podcast about podcasting while I was on the trail. I was like, “You know, when I get back, I think I'm going to try this thing.” It's allowed me to connect with all these people. When I started the website, I did this blog, I was like, “Okay, I'm reaching some people.” The premise of it was to help people, but also bridge this gap between these different communities. You have these hunting guys, you have these long distance hikers, and they all seem kind of way different from each other. My idea was to bridge the gap between the community, because they all have something in common. They're all working towards the same goal, they just have different end results, right?
I start doing the website and I'm like, “Okay, it's kind of working. I'm not reaching a lot of people.” But then I start the podcast, and it just kind of starts growing, and growing, and growing. Now when I publish an episode, I'm getting people from the hunting community, and the long distance backpacking community, and just average Joe's that are just enjoying the weekend, and everyone's coming to the podcast and getting something from it. I'm like, “Whoa, okay. I'm proving concept.” Whereas, this wasn't something that I thought could be done, these groups are so far apart. Now, I'm proving to myself that these people do want to talk, they want to have a dialogue. And so I guess where I find myself is that I've been really focused on creating content. That's been my mission, and I'm like, “I'll figure out the other stuff later,” I guess, so I can kind of prove the platform.
It's proven. I believe some episodes have over 1,000 downloads. I usually get, within a week it's like 500 to 600 downloads after an episode is published. I think that's pretty cool.
Pat Flynn: That's awesome man.
Emory Wanger: Yeah.
Pat Flynn: Imagine being in a room with 600 people who are all backpackers every single week. That's awesome.
Emory Wanger: Right? I'm going on other podcasts now. I went on three different hunting specific podcasts to talk about long distance hiking.
Pat Flynn: Wow, okay. So, where are we, what's . . . That's great. But now what? What are you hoping for?
Emory Wanger: I'm finding myself in this space where I don't know what to do next. I have these ideas of like, “Okay, it's working. I want to reach more people.” I'm getting really, really excited. But, I don't know when to make that . . . How do I turn it into something that I do full-time, that makes me money, so that I can continue to help people? Because I just want to help people. Because it's a part-time thing in the hours that I do have when I'm not working.
I'm trying to figure out the best way to monetize the website without coming off like, “Oh, he's just another guy that's trying to make money on this thing.” But really, the only reason why I want to make the money and monetize it is so I can continue helping and reaching more people. I'm looking at affiliate stuff, that's kind of . . . I'm dabbling in that. I started a couple of ways to make money on the website by creating these custom teeshirts, kind of lifestyle apparel type stuff. Then I started a Patreon page. But I'm like, “Oh man, I don't know what the best way is to do it.” Do I start a teaching course, like How to Backpack? But the problem is, I would be teaching a hobby, not something that's going to make someone else money, and a skillset that they can grow on and make money. I'm like, where do I land in this world of going forward with it?
Pat Flynn: Yeah. I mean, I have a lot of comments on that. My big question to you is, what exactly do you want? How much money would you need to make, for example, to go full-time with it?
Emory Wanger: I think if I could replace my current salary, my lifestyle, if I could just maintain my lifestyle, I think I can build upon that. And really, what I'd like to do right now is just pay for the platform, pay for my . . . You know, pay for my time so I can reach more people. Pay for more equipment, that kind of stuff. And then to be able to travel.
Pat Flynn: Right, so it's like the first goal.
Emory Wanger: Yeah, yeah. Just kind of backfill, you know?
Pat Flynn: Yeah. Before we even get into the strategies, I think it's important to address the sort of fear behind making money, which is very common. It was something that I went through as well. The last thing you want to be is a sellout, or like you said, those comments were, “Ah, you're just making money.” But, what was interesting is before I even asked, you commented with the proper response, and I felt it was real, which was, “I need to make money so I can help more people. I need to support the brand. I need to pay for . . .” This is why personal brands often at the beginning try to make money, is so that they can expand and grow. It's why, for example think of Kickstarter. These are just ideas. But they're getting people to be on board with those ideas and back them so that the idea can actually turn into something real.
Along the lines of what you were talking about related to backpacking not being something that can help people make money and being a hobby: I think that is a limiting belief that those people aren't going to spend money or enjoy spending money with you.
Emory Wanger: Okay.
Pat Flynn: I spend a lot of money on Back to the Future stuff. That makes me absolutely zero dollars, but it makes me really happy, and I know there's a lot of other random nerds out there who would also enjoy spending money, and don't expect anything in return except a good time, and fun, and experiences. I mean, you're providing experiences, you're providing memories, which to many people are worth more than money.
Emory Wanger: That's a good point, yeah. I guess maybe that's my struggle. How do I help more people but get return on my time, you know?
Pat Flynn: I mean, there's many ways to do that. You had mentioned an online course. This is something that I've been doing over the last year and a half, that I was very reluctant to do because I was worried about my audience pushing back and like, “Oh, well you're already making all this money through affiliate marketing, are you really trying to make even more from us?” But you know what I found out, is that my course students who execute, and they get results, they wish they paid me more. They want to pay me more for new courses because I've given them something that they weren't able to get before. That transaction is really important, because that means there's skin in the game, and you can actually serve and sell at the same time. That's really what it comes down to, and the big lesson that I learned is that you can sell and serve at the same time. Which makes sense, but then I thought about my past. “Why didn't I make that connection before?” It was because I was sold to while not being served before.
Emory Wanger: Oh, okay.
Pat Flynn: I mean, we all have experienced that, right? I mean we're like—somebody's selling you something and you're like, “This is not what I need, and you don't even know my name but you're selling me something. What's the deal?” You don't want to be like that, which is good that you don't want to be like that. But, that shouldn't stop you from the idea of making money when the primary motive is actually to help people.
There's lots of ways to do that. Like I said, an online course could be a way, and you could validate that people want that or not. But, even before that I think there might be some low-hanging fruit in the affiliate marketing realm, where if you are talking about and recommending products you might as well earn a commission while doing so.
From that, are there any kind of low-hanging fruit that you think is available for you to do that? We could maybe try some first steps to kind of experiment with that. I mean really what's going to help you is just experimentation, right? Breaking through those fear barriers, number one. But then kind of trying to see what this particular audience that you've built, which is very unique, what is it that they want more of? It could be a Patreon model down the road, it could be affiliate marketing, it could be online courses, it could be a once a year event that you put on that you actually host where people come and fly out and you all backpack together. That's worth a lot of money too. I mean, there's a billion ways to do it. But, what are some sort of immediate ways that you feel, based on what you're doing right now, that could be done sooner than later?
Emory Wanger: I feel like the affiliate route is likely the one that makes the most sense. The reason why I say that is I get a ton of emails of like, “Hey, what do you think about this? What would you suggest for that?” I'm like, “Okay, cool. Well I can direct them towards a thing that I know works, that I've used in the past, or I know a lot about that I can say, “Hey, you might want to check this out. Use this link,” whatever to purchase, I'm an affiliate.” Right?
Pat Flynn: Yep.
Emory Wanger: I feel like that's probably the easiest—
Pat Flynn: What kinds of things is it? Is it actually the backpacks and such?
Emory Wanger: Oh dude, I mean it could . . . I would say the gear, you know? People are super terrified. You walk into an REI and you're like, “Whoa.”
Pat Flynn: Yeah.
Emory Wanger: I mean, that is super intense. I've talked to people where they walk into REI, they're there for three hours, they walk out, and they don't even know why they went in and they're like, “I'm more confused.”
It's nice to have someone be like, “Hey, you've done this thing. What do you think I should start with?” I point them in the right direction. I feel like that's a super easy way to do it. I need to probably start really honing in on doing affiliate. I opened an Amazon affiliate deal, so I need to start doing those links. I've implemented some of your tools, like just tried like, links in here and whatnot inside posts. I am working on that.
Pat Flynn: Yeah. I mean, that's a start, but when you said earlier that you're pointing people to the right direction, is that through essentially a link in a blog post?
Emory Wanger: Yeah, I mean right now it's just offering advice, where I need to change that to, “Here, check out these things.” Yeah, I mean how do I—
Pat Flynn: Here's what you do. Create a resource page on your website.
Emory Wanger: Okay.
Pat Flynn: This is a page, not a blog post, that will continually be updated over time. But, you can set it up with just exactly all the things that people need. You can break it down into different categories. A good place to look for an example of this is my buddy Thomas's site, CollegeInfoGeek.com. In a very similar way, people who are off to college are starting their own journey and trek. In doing so they need a lot of equipment to do it right. You'll notice that on CollegeInfoGeek.com, the resource page—which he calls, Tools, I think, at the top—if you go there, there's one in particular that's called College Packing List. He's told me that that is by far, on his website, one of the most profitable things because people who are going to college want all the things in one place.
None of those things are his. They're links to Amazon. But, what happens is a person gets one thing, and then—I don't know if you know this about Amazon, but if they go through your Amazon link for let's say a food container, but then they also add to their cart a backpack and a Swiss Army Knife, and all these other things, those all get included in your affiliate commission.
A packing list, and I would imagine—and correct me if I'm wrong, Emory. But if you're going on a one day hike, a packing list is going to be very different than if you're going on a big six month.
Emory Wanger: Absolutely, yep.
Pat Flynn: So you could even break it down into that. “Oh, you're going on that trail? That should take you about three days. Here's the packing list that I would recommend for it.”
Emory Wanger: Yeah, I mean that would be . . . That's a really good point because it's a lot of different scenarios and a lot of different gear. There's not just one gear that fills every niche. There's different tools for each thing you're going on, so that would be quite the landscape to be able to do.
Pat Flynn: Yeah, I would imagine. Here's the thing Emory, if I'm going on a hike and I have no idea what I'm doing, but I've listened to your show, I trust your recommendations and I will want to . . . You have to be open with affiliate marketing. You have to let people know that you're earning a commission. I want you to get paid back for what you've inspired me to do, and now you're helping, and now you go even further and go, “Hey Pat, you're going on this hike? Here's my two to three day packing list for you.” I go, “Thank you, because I didn't know. Now it's here in one spot.” So that should remove the, “Oh, well I don't want to make money. I'm afraid people are going to . . .” People are going to thank you for this.
Emory Wanger: Hmm, okay.
Pat Flynn: That could be a great . . . Here's the other thing. If you actually look up “college packing list” on Google, his post shows up first or second. Not only can you make money from that, but you're getting organic traffic and new people coming your way who have very specific needs. If I'm a random searcher who goes and searches, I don't know what the keywords would be but, “Backpacking gear guide for five day trip,” and I stumble upon that. Before I even know who you are I go through and I'm like, “Oh right, this is perfect. Wait, he has a podcast? Let me check this out. Oh, he has a blog? This guy's really cool.” Those are, I think, essentials. This is what I teach in my affiliate marketing course, like the resource page is an essential, and different niches have different kinds of resources that you can clump in different ways. How does that feel to you?
Emory Wanger: I think it feels really good, and it feels right up my alley of like . . . It kind of lessens that fear, I guess. When you said the word fear a moment ago, that fear of making money I was like, “Oh, that's me.”
Pat Flynn: That's a lot of us.
Emory Wanger: Well, because I've never made that jump, right? I've never tried to . . . It's really special to me if someone gives me money to do a thing for them. That's really humbling to me.
Pat Flynn: Yeah, I mean this is great, Emory. I'm very encouraged by the fact that you're saying these things, because that means you're going to think and do the right things to help people first.
Emory Wanger: Yeah.
Pat Flynn: That's what sets people like you apart from those who are just in it for the money. You're obviously building relationship with your audience too and you know, maybe the relationship starts with the packing list, but then turns into one day when you put on your own event or own trek in some remote part of the world. They're going to come, and that's the first interaction they have with you. I like this because it's small. You're not going to, in a month, replace your income.
Emory Wanger: Right.
Pat Flynn: But this is the start, and this starts to help you understand that you can serve and sell at the same time. I mean, then from there you can essentially go, “Okay guys, what do you need help with the most next?” Because now you've gotten the foundational stuff. “All right, you got the packing list. I gave that to you, it's free.” But obviously you're getting paid at the same time for it which is cool, so it's a win for everybody. But then you can go to them and go, “What's the biggest challenge you now have related to your next task here?” And they're going to tell you. They're going to tell you, “You know, I just wish I had a guide for this certain trail.” If that's a common thing that you start hearing, then maybe you work with somebody who already has them, and promote those as an affiliate. Or, you create them on your own.
Or, perhaps they're like, “You know, I'm going on this . . .” What's it called, the Pacific Trail?
Emory Wanger: Crest Trail, yep.
Pat Flynn: “Pacific Crest Trail. I'm doing that and it's a big goal of mine.” I mean, imagine the feeling that they have after they get to the end, and the fact that you were the reason why they were actually able to do this. That's amazing. But, maybe because it's such a bigger trip and there's a lot bigger investment, they would be willing to—and this would be something you would test. Experiment with some sort of guided online course thing, or thing they can download so that at every checkpoint you check in with them automatically. You go, “Hey Emory . . .” Or, “This is Emory. You're at checkpoint one here in Oceanside.” I don't know, I'm just making stuff up.
Emory Wanger: Yeah.
Pat Flynn: “Here's some things to know about this place. Here's the history behind it. I slept in this bed right over here.” You could, I mean that would be like they're with you.
Emory Wanger: I like the idea of keeping . . . So, I love the idea of building the blocks of the core principles, and then building up from there with the audience. Honestly Pat, I don't see this as like a flash in the pan, this is very important to me. I get so excited when I can help someone. They email me from Germany and they're like, “I got a question.” And I'm like, “Holy smokes,” and I can help them. It gets me so excited. This is something I want to do literally the rest of my life. If this is all I did I'd be super stoked.
Pat Flynn: I can feel it, I can feel it. I would set a goal for yourself, an income goal, so that you can go full-time with this at some date in the future.
Emory Wanger: Okay.
Pat Flynn: Then work backwards from there. That will help you in terms of decisions. “Okay, I have to make this much by then. If I did this model, if I did the course model, how many students would I need? If I had a membership, how many students would need to pay every month, and at what dollar amount? Or, if I had a Patreon, how many backers would I need at different price levels?” I mean, then you can actually start taking correct sort of legit action instead of just like, “You know, I'm just going to ethereally create content, and just kind of, we'll see what happens.” Now you're working backwards from a goal, and that'll help you accelerate if you feel like you're behind, or just start making decisions for you.
What's cool about this, and what I want you to think about is the day that you quit and you get to do this full-time, and how many more people you could help because of that.
Emory Wanger: Oh man, yeah.
Pat Flynn: You know what I mean?
Emory Wanger: Yeah. Super stoked. Okay, so you don't see an issue with . . . Backpacking is not something, I mean there are professional backpackers out there, that is a thing. But, you don't see this as like, investing into a hobby? People will pay for a hobby? I mean, I think that's a hangup that I have.
Pat Flynn: How much is a backpack?
Emory Wanger: A couple hundred bucks, at a minimum.
Pat Flynn: How much is it worth to have information so that I don't die when I go on these trails?
Emory Wanger: Well that's pretty important, yeah.
Pat Flynn: Yeah, do you see what I mean?
Emory Wanger: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Pat Flynn: I mean, that's the extreme obviously.
Emory Wanger: Yeah, no, it's true.
Pat Flynn: For everybody's safety. But, people pay for convenience. No matter what it is that they're doing, even if they are not there to make money, they are there because they're willing to part with cash in exchange for convenience, and just knowledge, and trust.
Emory Wanger: Yeah. Comfort, yeah.
Pat Flynn: You're giving all of those things.
Emory Wanger: Okay, cool. So there is value there. Okay, that's good.
Pat Flynn: Absolutely. I would imagine that there's a segment of the audience listening right now who's just like, “Emory, come on dude. Yes, you can . . . What's the deal here.” Right? It's just mental blocks, right?
Emory Wanger: Yeah.
Pat Flynn: Hopefully, I mean you probably knew this was true, but maybe hearing it from me makes it more true, and maybe some of the audience here will get on Twitter and . . . I don't even know what episode number this is. If all of you listening send me a message, I'll forward it to Emory in terms of like, “Hey, I would spend money for information about backpacking.” Or, “I'm a backpacker, and to say that I wouldn't spend money, or that there is no money in this industry, is silly.” Yeah, I think you just need that encouragement. But you've got all the pieces, man. I think you're in a really unique niche, and I think that the crossover between these different sort of sub-niches in the outdoor space is really, really cool. I think there's a lot of opportunity for you to grow as a result of doing that, with publications.
I would imagine that you could easily reach out to somebody who writes for Field & Stream, and . . . If they're still around. I don't know.
Emory Wanger: I think they are, yeah.
Pat Flynn: Talk to them and have them understand that you have the podcast, or invite them on your podcast, and have them get to know . . . I mean, the growth opportunity here is huge. The hobby has money in it. You're not teaching people how to draw with crayons, right?
Emory Wanger: True, yeah.
Pat Flynn: When you get crayons for free at the restaurant. There is money there, and I'm very encouraged. I think the first steps would be what, Emory?
Emory Wanger: I think I need to . . . I know I need to build that resource page. I mean, I think that is the very first step. I need to really hone in on that. Then build that out with the . . . Build an end user profile of who am I, and build a resource page for them. Before that man, I think you pointed out a really big thing. You made me think back. I think I might have some initial fears of being confident in what I'm offering, and knowing that someone might want to support me by using an affiliate link, or paying me for a course one day down the road. I think yeah, resource page right away. That's super low-hanging.
Pat Flynn: Yeah, and actually it doesn't necessarily have to be a page. It could be a blog post, it could be either one. But somewhere on the website where I can click and go, “All right, here's my directory of things that relate to me now.”
Emory Wanger: True.
Pat Flynn: It's really key. However you want to structure it. I don't want you to get hung up on the how, you just need to do it.
Emory Wanger: Yep, just do it. Yep.
Pat Flynn: Yeah. Cool man. Any other questions or things on your mind?
Emory Wanger: No, I think that's it. I think the reason why I wanted to talk to you is I found myself in a really interesting position. I haven't gone so far in one direction yet that I can't come back from it, you know?
Pat Flynn: Mm-hmm. But you've never done this before, so I understand.
Emory Wanger: No, never done it. Yeah, so I think I wanted to . . . My intention was to get a hold of you and say, “Hey, what do you think? Where should I start based on what I've built?” And then to hear you say, “Yeah, work on those things that help people, continue helping people.” I think if I keep that in mind, keep the money as a benefit of helping people.
Pat Flynn: Yes.
Emory Wanger: But focus on them, building the resource page, then eventually all that stuff will come. Then having an income goal. Man, I think I might have to get over my fears of like . . . I think that's a big one for me.
Pat Flynn: I think the resource pages are going to be a great start for you.
Emory Wanger: Absolutely.
Pat Flynn: Because you'll start to see some money coming in, and you will not see any negative from it.
Emory Wanger: Yeah, cool. Man, this has been great.
Pat Flynn: Awesome Emory. Well, keep up the good work. ByLand.co. I look forward to catching up with you, and seeing how things go.
Emory Wanger: Yeah man, thanks a lot.
Pat Flynn: All right, I hope you enjoyed that coaching session with Emory. Emory, thank you so much for your time and being open about your process. Also, I look forward to following up with you like I said, related to those resource pages that you're going to create for those different length treks. I'm looking forward to maybe checking it out myself for personal reasons, because backpacking sounds really cool. Emory, thank you so much.
Thank you all for listening, I appreciate it. If you have a moment to leave a review on iTunes, that'd be super fantastic.
Also by the way, I just want to give a big shout out to Seva (formerly ConvertKit), a company that I advise and I'm also an affiliate for it. A lot of people have been asking me about, “Pat, do you have any special deals for Seva?” Actually, I do. You can actually get a forty-five day free trial to Seva if you go to SmartPassiveIncome.com/convertkit45. That's only available through me. SmartPassiveIncome.com/convertkit45. Go ahead and enjoy that. Try it out, start your email list, it's all good stuff.
Again, thank you so much for listening in to AskPat today, I appreciate it. I look forward to serving you next week where we talk with somebody who's reached their client limit. They can only handle so many clients, they want to go agency, and they don't know how to do that properly. I'm going to coach them through that. Make sure you subscribe so you can get that automatically delivered to your device when it comes out next week. I appreciate you, and I'll see you next week. Bye.
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